Time to renationalise?

[ACE]

Originally Posted by Belmont Road

Sorry to take you up on this ACE.

BR was in the process of fixed formations long before privatisation. There was a huge public outcry at over crowding, when the first sprinters hit the rails. The central Wales route lost its loco hauled trains - many up to six and more coaches - to two car 150's.

Fixed formations are now the recognised way - across the world - to achieve savings and improve operating efficiency. BR's policy on the high density routes (still used today) was to price people off the railway at peak times rather than increase capacity.

Re nationalisation won't change that I'm afraid.

Not a problem, all for 'differing opinions' Me, fair call in fact I'd say

[Master Cutler]

Although nearly 10 years old the below link is still interesting reading and quite an objective insight into the Network Rail business model, which in essence mirrors that of the CAA air traffic model.
http://www.bath.ac.uk/management/cri.../9_Plummer.pdf

[class48nswfan]

There are a number of views here that suggest that renationalisation in some part of the network would be welcomed. Are the new alliances between some TOCs and NR a step in this direction?
There are several reasons to support the status quo but one of reasons not to is that it is very expensive and there is a lot of waste. Is it right to put more people on the dole to support daft ideas like buying your tickets in the library? Or is it better to reform a system that sees a lot of our money benefitting the shareholders of ROSCOs and TOCs.
My view is that the rolling stock fiasco should be taken back in the national interest and a not for profit company used to purchase and upgrade new rolling stock. One of the reasons rail fares are high is that these trains have to be leased on a year by year basis.
The FOCs function well where they are and should be left as such.
The passenger TOCs need some sort of reform. The government has disappointed by not improving the franchise process and it seems more goes out of the railway than goes in. I would have hoped Hammond and Greening would have come up with more co-operative and innovative solution to see investment in infrastructure and rolling stock rather than shareholder welth increasing. The trick has to be to get operators to recognise this.
Lets be honest, the railway will not ever be re-nationalised because no one wants to hand the keys of the railway to Bob Crow.
Dave

[Belmont Road]

Some good points in this latest reply.

We tend to remember the things we liked about BR. However, strikes were one thing that were fairly common. I was stranded more than once by these.

Part of the splitting up meant that a national rail strike was very difficult to achieve. The NUR now the RMT have a had a proud history but I do feel that the current leadership is more involved in political change than representing their members.

The leasing companies have had a bad press. But would BR have gone down the same route? Many think so. It would - on paper - have saved millions on the capital account and reduced subsidy in the short term - whenever did politicians think long term?

However, leasing is the norm in other transport. Almost all large bus companies do it as do many airlines. It does make good business sense, otherwise they wouldn't do it.

The railway model was investigated a few years back and the ROSCo's were found to be efficient.

Britain's railway needs reform to get costs down, there are many things wrong. Not least on a practical level - rescuing broken down trains - one area being where one failed unit can disrupt an entire days operation. Caused entirely by the TOC's not investing in standby locos etc.

Apparently it is cheaper to pay compensation than to have rescue infrastructure in place. There are many examples of perverse regulations in the industry that should be swept aside.

[Silver Fox Phil]

Originally Posted by Belmont Road

Some good points in this latest reply.
Section of quote:
Apparently it is cheaper to pay compensation than to have rescue infrastructure in place. There are many examples of perverse regulations in the industry that should be swept aside.

Very good point and one that shows just how bad this industry has become (in fact the nation as a whole is fast becomming a culture of claimants)
Having read a lot of view points in this thread and understanding the issues with nationalization in the past, and I fully accept times when BR became a disfunctional company, I still maintain that re-nationalization woulkd be the way to go. We can learn so much from the issues the French had and also the past, but I firmly believe that with the right management we can once again become great. We can have a system where railways service the greater ecconomy in all areas of our country. We can vastley reduce polution from the burning of fossil fuels, cost of building roads and maintenace for example. OK I agree door to door would be difficult but there is nothing wrong with providing local delivery services. That would provide additional opportuities for local businesses to bloom!
Yes it would require commitment and huge investment but done correctly we could once again be world leaders.
All the best
Phil

[keith morgan]

Re. Silver Fox and Belmont Rd, two well constructed opinions.

[philw]

Surely, with privatisation of the roads on the cards, re-nationalisation of the railways would be a terrible retrograde step. Remember, the concept was based on Marx's (that's Karl - not Groucho) idea of the proletariat gaining control of the means of production: a pure communist theory, designed to equalise wealth. Efficiency and profitability was not part of the equation.

Marxism and Communism has been an abject failure resulting in terrible injustice and inefficiency and has totally failed to deliver on any of it's promises. This has been true in the UK where little remains of the of the nationalised industries of the past - BT, British Coal, British Steel and Ports, to name but a few..

Surely, people must remember the restrictive practices, collective bargaining, overmanning, terrible waste, strikes organised by communist shop stewards and the utter failure of the industries concerned to compete in a modern world.

There is nowhere in the world today where a return to nationalisation is being contemplated: with the last bastions like Cuba, N Korea and Belorus struggling to even feed their own people.

I for one, shudder at the prospect of a return of the nationalisation of the rail industry and can only think that those proposing it just fear the uncertainty of the future and prefer the safety of the past without giving due consideration to the consequencies..

[Belmont Road]

Good sense in this latest response.

Whatever is said on this forum, there is no political will, certainly in England to re-nationalise. I say England because the SNP seems to be talking up the idea a bit and making - in my opinion - stupid statements such as not allowing English Railway Companies past Edinburgh and Glasgow.

Have they forgotten that First Group is not a Scottish Company?

The Welsh National Party have come up with some similar daft ideas on railways in the past.

I think the Northern Ireland railways are still in public ownership - is that right?

[philw]

The SNP and the Welsh Nationalists may talk about nationalisations in the event of obtaining independance, but this is a ploy to gain support from all those who are rooted in the past and can't face up to the exciting challenges of the future.

The reality is that to proceed with any nationalisation would contravene EC competition regulations and this would leave them outwith the EU devoid of grants, bailouts and investments..

[Belmont Road]

Originally Posted by philw

The SNP and the Welsh Nationalists may talk about nationalisations in the event of obtaining independance, but this is a ploy to gain support from all those who are rooted in the past and can't face up to the exciting challenges of the future.

The reality is that to proceed with any nationalisation would contravene EC competition regulations and this would leave them outwith the EU devoid of grants, bailouts and investments..

Exactly I agree,