Why does DB Shenker want to scrap class 60's

[ACE]

The 60's are probably the biggest single victims of Rail freight privatisation, politics and railways just don't mix...Shame but there you go...

[21Aman]

Originally Posted by Rassy

Why do F exams cost 500k? And what exactly does an F exam entail?

An "F Exam" is a virtual rebuild,apart from frames and bodywork replacement.

[lnwr20]

Well i remember when the first class60's where on test trials, they brought two fully loaded iron ore trains from South Wales over to the Swindon area coupled them both together at a combined total weight of something near 3,000 tonnes. Then coupled a class 60 with a class 56 inside to assist if nessary then it was sent back to South Wales via Gloucester to see how it would cope with the gradients an weight over that route, an from what i can recall the train made good time an the 56 was just idling the whole way an added to the weight making the total train weight just over 3,000 tonnes. i would like very much to see a class 66 try that feat on it own when they struggle up the North & West route through Hereford with not even half that weight on.

[Rassy]

Originally Posted by 21Aman

An "F Exam" is a virtual rebuild,apart from frames and bodywork replacement.

So what happens during: A, B, C, D and E exams?

[railwaybuddy]

i like class 60's

even better in DB S colours

[John H-T]

Originally Posted by 21Aman

An "F Exam" is a virtual rebuild,apart from frames and bodywork replacement.

First I have to say that I know nothing about Modern Traction overhaul schedules so what follows is probably a load of rubbish!

Where would an F exam fit in compared to Steam schedules? Is it the equivelent of a Heavy General or is more of a total rebuild like Stanier's rebuild of the Royal Scots? At what sort of milage/engine hours would it take place? At what sort of time interval is it likely to take place? : 5, 10, 20 years?

Looking back at the more successful first generation Diesels, eg 37,47, many of them went through a major refurbishment after about 20-25 years to bring them in line with changing requirements and give them a thorough overhaul to make them fit for another 20-25 years which worked particularly for the 37's. The HST's have also gone through the same process with re-engine programmes etc.

Is this where the 60's are at present? If so is £500,000 such a big deal when set agianst replacing them? Or is it easier just to run them into the ground, which seems to be the case, and then buy/lease new. I suppose the logical replacement for the 60's, if they prove successful, would be the new 70's. It would seem that the 66's would not really do all the jobs the 60's do.

Looking at it another way the 60's are now 20 years old and probably need major work so replace them. I wonder how many of the original 66's will still be in use in 2018! So next year after the design has been tested and evaluated can we expect to see the 60's replaced with 70's?

A lot of thoughts to which I have no answers! I am also looking at it purely on a commercial basis not as a railway enthusiast! I hope some of you might have some answers or at least ideas!


I would be also be grateful for a quick run down of what the A-E exams entail.

Many thanks in anticipation.

John H-T.

[21Aman]

Originally Posted by John H-T

First I have to say that I know nothing about Modern Traction overhaul schedules so what follows is probably a load of rubbish!

Where would an F exam fit in compared to Steam schedules? Is it the equivelent of a Heavy General or is more of a total rebuild like Stanier's rebuild of the Royal Scots? At what sort of milage/engine hours would it take place? At what sort of time interval is it likely to take place? : 5, 10, 20 years?

Looking back at the more successful first generation Diesels, eg 37,47, many of them went through a major refurbishment after about 20-25 years to bring them in line with changing requirements and give them a thorough overhaul to make them fit for another 20-25 years which worked particularly for the 37's. The HST's have also gone through the same process with re-engine programmes etc.

Is this where the 60's are at present? If so is £500,000 such a big deal when set agianst replacing them? Or is it easier just to run them into the ground, which seems to be the case, and then buy/lease new. I suppose the logical replacement for the 60's, if they prove successful, would be the new 70's. It would seem that the 66's would not really do all the jobs the 60's do.

Looking at it another way the 60's are now 20 years old and probably need major work so replace them. I wonder how many of the original 66's will still be in use in 2018! So next year after the design has been tested and evaluated can we expect to see the 60's replaced with 70's?

A lot of thoughts to which I have no answers! I am also looking at it purely on a commercial basis not as a railway enthusiast! I hope some of you might have some answers or at least ideas!


I would be also be grateful for a quick run down of what the A-E exams entail.

Many thanks in anticipation.

John H-T.

The crux of the matter is that EWS/DB Shencker will not pay to replace the now worn out class 60's, firstly they don't need to at present,any heavy train (2000-3000 tonnes) worked by class 60's will be worked by two class 66's in multiple,the reason being that freight traffic is in "freefall" and they have a surplus of loco's,to accommodate "multiple" working.As for replacing them with class 70's have you seen their track record since introduction ?
DBS certainly wouldn't be interested in "buying" any loco in today's climate and I doubt whether a "leasing" company would be interested at the moment to "buy" class 70's !
As regards exams on loco's I don't know the system used today but everything used to be related to "engine hours" not mileage completed,an "A" exam used to be a running exam,comestible levels ,brake wear,electrical circuits etc. carried out weekly I think.
As to B,C,D and E exams I think everything was changed with the introduction of more modern motive power (class 66/67) and the exam times were extended considerably,but alas the 56/58/60 class locos were serviced under the "old system" making them more expensive to run/maintain ?
Its the same with cars really at one time you changed your oil at 3000 miles now with "modern" cars its 10000 miles or even further !
But an "F" exam still means the same, a virtual rebuild which costs "mega bucks" and when you own the loco you have to pay !

[John H-T]

Thanks 21Aman.

I realise that frieght trffic is at a low ebb, but hopefully things will get better. I have also followed the introduction with the 70's. One would hope that they will be sorted over time, which is why I assume that there are only six a present .... or perhaps someone will come up with a better design!

Best wishes,

John H-T.

[Rassy]

Originally Posted by 21Aman

The crux of the matter is that EWS/DB Shencker will not pay to replace the now worn out class 60's, firstly they don't need to at present,any heavy train (2000-3000 tonnes) worked by class 60's will be worked by two class 66's in multiple,the reason being that freight traffic is in "freefall" and they have a surplus of loco's,to accommodate "multiple" working.As for replacing them with class 70's have you seen their track record since introduction ?
DBS certainly wouldn't be interested in "buying" any loco in today's climate and I doubt whether a "leasing" company would be interested at the moment to "buy" class 70's !
As regards exams on loco's I don't know the system used today but everything used to be related to "engine hours" not mileage completed,an "A" exam used to be a running exam,comestible levels ,brake wear,electrical circuits etc. carried out weekly I think.
As to B,C,D and E exams I think everything was changed with the introduction of more modern motive power (class 66/67) and the exam times were extended considerably,but alas the 56/58/60 class locos were serviced under the "old system" making them more expensive to run/maintain ?
Its the same with cars really at one time you changed your oil at 3000 miles now with "modern" cars its 10000 miles or even further !
But an "F" exam still means the same, a virtual rebuild which costs "mega bucks" and when you own the loco you have to pay !

Wow...really interesting post! Wouldn't it make financial sense to the leasing companies to buy the class 60's at scrap price, do the F exams, then lease them back when the economy picks up (if it ever picks up)? Surely that would cost substancially less than buying brand new loco's?

Also, what kind of problems have the class 70's been having?

[ccmmick]

I dont know the in's and out's of exams i was just a driver you were told to put the engine on the shed for an exam and that was end of story for me.
But the cost of everything on the railways is sky high prices as you all know.
We had a 67 not long in service with a broken windscreen on it, had to wait two days to come down by road the cost £3000 plus the loco two days out of service.
Just think of that the next time you have your car windscreen replaced.

ccmmick.