Purpose of the Northern franchisee.

[hstudent]

What was the reason behind merging what was set up as the North Western franchisee and the Northern Spirit franchisee?

I've seen no benefits looking at my local line and beyond.

Firstly with regards to rolling stock under First North Western the trains used on the Manchester to Chester via Altrincham line were mainly a mixture of 142s and refurbished 150s, with some services being run by 158s or 175s. It should be noted that the 142s used all had around 120 seats.

When Northern took over the trains used on the same line are mostly 142s. Some of the 142s that now appear on the line have only 102 seats. The few services not operated by 142s are usually either refurbished or non-refurbished 150s or occasionally a 156. It's actually quite funny seeing someone trying to use a laptop or sorting through papers on a 142 or a 150.

On trains between Blackpool and Manchester 2 car 150s are commonly used, despite commonly being overcrowded. Under First North Western there were more 3 car trains going to Blackpool than at present. (Although Transpennine Express now run some of the services with 3 car 185s, there is a First Class section which there wasn't on 3 car 150s and 175s) Also some of the 150s used on that line have not been refurbished.

Working toilet facilities are an issue which Northern need to address. Especially when trains without working toilet facilities are made to do journeys of around 3 hours and many stations which Northern Rail serve do not have toilet facilities at or near the station.

Northern Rail's decision to move trains between the north west and Yorkshire meant that destination displays couldn't display the correct name of the station the train was heading for. At one stage practically every former Arriva Trains Northern train going south or west from Manchester said 'Adwick' on the front, which could easily get confused with Ardwick near Manchester.

Northern Rail have reportedly got 30 158s to replace 24 142s yet 158s never appear at Manchester Piccadilly station and 142s seem the most common train on the Manchester to Sheffield and Manchester Oxford Rd to Liverpool services as well as the Chester service. Although slightly more former Arriva Trains Northern 156s seem to be about in the north west, so perhaps Northern decided that the 30 158s should all go to run services in the Yorkshire region.

One final point is that the former First North Western 156s seem in good condition with the exception being the carpets on virtually every train of that type are badly worn especially around the table areas.

[222007]

The masterplan was to decrease franchise's as has seen with the London Midland, FGW, East Midlands franchises.

As for the toilets yes i agree it needs sorting butr when we had Central (as they were then) if no toilets were working they'd have an increased stop at Say Leicester or Peterborough for A toilet break. Voyagers (220 +221's) are re nowned also for toilets breaking down along with xc's 170's.

Northern are also now only recieving i believe 22 158's with the rest going to Scotrail and EMT's. To soften the blow 10 142's are coming out of store and also Northern are recieving the centre cars from EMT's 158's.

I think the critism's of Northern are unjust to be honest. There hands are pretty much tied with what stock they can get by the DFT. I've noticed a marked mprovement to the services of there's that i do use. At least your not in FGW land where your lucky to get a train sometimes.

[John_142]

I think Northern need to buck there iders up they don't seem to have a clue what they are doing.

It is not about what stock they can get it is about what they do with it and how they run the services and about scrapping services that just don't need to be there.

examples (My area)

1- Liverpool to Stayleybridge (Stopping Service), This should turn back at Manchester Victoria and Operated by 150 units (3 or 4 Coaches).

2-Liverpool to Manchester Airport (Express) This should be 1st stop Huyton then Rainhill - St.Helens Junction - Newton Le Willows - MAnchester Piccadilly - MAnchester Airport. omiting wavertree as there is no need for it to stop here Huyton is a more popular stop than wavertree and also it should be operated by a 158 (3 Coaches Min)

3-Liverpool to Warrington Ban Quay this service sholsd be scrapped and replaced with a Stopping Service to Manchester Piccadilly and operated by a 150 unit (3 or four Coaches).

4-Liverpool to Blackpool (Express) This shold be 1st Stop Huyton then St.Helns Ctl- Wigan N W - Preston - Leyland - Blackpool North and oprated by a 158 (3 Coaches Min).


5-Liverpool to Wigan this should be operated by a 142 unit (Four Coaches /2 Units Peak )

6-Liverpool to Manchester Oxford Road to be operated by a 150 unit (3 or four coaches) and Half hourly to Stop at HUnts Cross.

"There you go Back to Basics Simplicity is the Best in my Book"

[222007]

John the problem with your plan is thats an awful lot or rolling stock needed to provide that basic plan. Northern don't have as much rolling stock as you think and to be honest Leeds seems to be a priority (Leeds-Manchester also)

[John_142]

I think if they put there minds to it they could do it becuse by tturing the trian back at Manchester instead of Stayleybridge then this must save a few units.

158's would be great on the expeses but this is also what 156's are built for plus theve got quite a few 153 units so why not Start using them to strenghen services or do some swops with Arriva.

Plus the ammount of 142's sitting arround in lIme Street allday sometimes this all counts plus before Northern back in the days of Regional Railways the above post is how the services worked exept for the 156's.

They do need to sort it out soon thogh becuase it is only going top get worse and if they don't like the Liverpool area then they should give it to Stagecoach or Arriva.

Last nioght was a classic example of penny pinching by Northern the 16.55 from L/pool Lime Street to Manchester Oxford Rd came in as 142 007 and a 150 unit four coach working it went back out as forur coaches but only 142 007 in use packed to the rafters.

The 150 had passengers on when it came in but was put out of use for some unknown reason.

[tkboomer2]

Originally Posted by John_142

I think if they put there minds to it they could do it becuse by tturing the trian back at Manchester instead of Stayleybridge then this must save a few units.

I think the reason for that is because Transpennine Express reduced the number of trains calling at Stalybridge from two per hour to one per hour.

Originally Posted by John_142

Last nioght was a classic example of penny pinching by Northern the 16.55 from L/pool Lime Street to Manchester Oxford Rd came in as 142 007 and a 150 unit four coach working it went back out as forur coaches but only 142 007 in use packed to the rafters.

The 150 had passengers on when it came in but was put out of use for some unknown reason.

When the Metrolink services to Altrincham were suspended due to track maintance work Northern were getting paid by GMPTE to run 6 peak trains between Manchester and Chester with 2 extra carriages. Northern decided that they would leave the trains joined up with 2 carriages out of use for the other services during the day. This led to, on other services throughout the day, people standing up in the front two carriages when the back 2 were closed.

[tkboomer2]

I just made two observations from looking at a new Northern train timetable.

1. It says on the front "Public transport operator of the year"
2. It says "Metrolink services are operated by Serco Metrolink."

No wonder mistakes keep getting reprinted if they can't be bothered to update their timetables from last winter, with the exception of the dates.

[John_142]

It would be an idear for the DFT to give Transpennie Express some New longer trains ie a Class 223 as i think i have said before to be simmler to the Medrians but Built to six car formation to run on most of there services Like L/Pool to Scarbough etc and then Replace Northerns 156's with the ammount of 185's required for these routes. (L/Pool B/pool etc)

Then then replace Northerns 150's with TPE's 170's and put the exess 185's on the Manchester to Hull routes to increse capacity on that route and to same doubling up of 170's.


And 170's could repalce some of the 142's.


Then the 185's and 170's to Operate as :-

L/Pool to Manchester Victoria Via Rainhill Stooping Service (Class 170 Operated)

L/Pool to Manchester Airport Express (185 Operated)

L/Pool to Blackpool Express (185 Operated)

L/Pool to Wigan Stopping Service) (170 Opertaed)

L/Pool to Manchester Ox Rd to Stop Half hourley at Hunts Cross (170 Operated)

L/Pool to Warrington Ban Quay to become a Turn back at Earlestown and to the Man Airport Express (185 op) to Stop at Rainhill to provide a mutch needed extra train to Manchester and a fast Service to Liverpool.(170 Op)

Also trains to turn back at Man Vic no longer serving Stayley bridge as there are pleanty of trains out from Manchester that go Via Stayley Bridge.

It would also reduce the ammount of trains needed therefore saving money and providing better quialty service with mutch needed better trains.

150's & 142's to be kept to the Manchester area as GMPTE don't fund the trains as mutch as Mersytravel therfore not mutch cost to be accured by Northern 185's are now old stock the same with the 170's.

East midalnds trains also could do with Longer trains to they could have a Class 224 say built to Stagecoach Spec and Seven coaches and simmler to the Medrians.

Althogh i have yet to ride a Medrain i do like the idear of them and seen them a few times in the flesh they seem to look the part and as iam quite impresed with the voyager i would immagine that the medrains are as good as them.

[hstudent]

I don't really buy the reason of merging the former First North Western and Arriva Trains Northern franchisees was set up to reduce the number of rail companies. Prior to December 2004 the Transpennine Express franchisee was a subsiduary of Arriva Trains Northern, rather than an individual company. So at that time all the current Northern Rail and Transpennine Express services were operated by two companies (which incidentally had staff that were always taking part in industrial action)

Although I accept that as the reason for London Midland and East Midlands Trains. As two companies are now running routes that were previously operated by three companies; Central Trains, Midland Mainline and Silverlink. Although, at the same time as that happened an additional train company was created by taking the Cross Country routes off Virgin to form Arriva Cross Country.

[hstudent]

Originally Posted by 222007

Northern don't have as much rolling stock as you think and to be honest Leeds seems to be a priority (Leeds-Manchester also)

I've been in the Leeds area at a peak time on a couple of occasions and the most overcrowded seem to be the Transpennine Express trains from Manchester in the morning and towards Manchester in the evening.

I caught a peak Manchester Victoria to Leeds service one morning which was being run by a 156 and it had quite a few empty seats.