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Aussisteve - what's going on here ?

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Old 10th March 2018, 14:12
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Aussisteve - what's going on here ?

G'day a/s.

Our press can normally be relied upon to exaggerate the facts and invent drivel.

Are yours 'at it' as well, or is this a scoop ?

Originally Posted by 2GB873AM
EXCLUSIVE | Government lying about $2.3 billion trains that donít fit in tunnels
Hmmm. Linky here...Is this true ???

I know we had this with Networkers striking the platform edge on the Southeastern (was it St Leonards Warrior Square or there abouts ?), and the French had it with some commuter stock, so have your guys got it wrong too ?

Best wishes, BW

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Old 10th March 2018, 16:57
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Originally Posted by Beeyar Wunby View Post
G'day a/s.

Our press can normally be relied upon to exaggerate the facts and invent drivel.

Are yours 'at it' as well, or is this a scoop ?

Hmmm. Linky here...Is this true ???

I know we had this with Networkers striking the platform edge on the Southeastern (was it St Leonards Warrior Square or there abouts ?), and the French had it with some commuter stock, so have your guys got it wrong too ?

Best wishes, BW
Hi BW.

Interesting, never heard of Networkers (class 465?) working down here (but then they wouldn't if they foul the platforms!) Was this a trial to try to use them on the Hastings lines? Anyway, probably at West St Leonards as this has platforms on a very tight curve, and until recent years had to have check rails due to the severity of the curve.


Last edited by TRP; 10th March 2018 at 17:00.
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Old 11th March 2018, 08:34
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G'day BW and Tony,
Yep, this is fair dinkum.
The newbie interurban emu sets being ordered from South Korea are too wide for some of the Blue Mountains platforms.
Not sure about the tunnels.
The problem platforms are the curved ones.
Them curved platforms will need the coping shaved a tad.
NSW is not alone in this type of debacle.
Queensland Railways also ordered trains that did not fit the tunnels between Roma Street and Central.
That was a while ago now.
We had three wagon widths of emu trains here in NSW.
Wide, medium and narrow.
Wide width cars are now gone to history.
Medium width are not permitted to work west of Springwood.
Narrow width can work on any part of the electrified network.
They coulda had even more problems had they went with the various German designs originally contemplated.
Not only a totally different overhead system, but also wagon width and step doorway height problems.
Them Deutsch mob having no less than three platform (bahnsteig) heights necessary for the three types of trains.
Now, add into the mix that the newbie Driverless Metro system being built for smog hollow is not compatible with the existing network.
We are really digging a tunnel for ouselves.
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Old 12th March 2018, 06:07
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G'day again,
Just a tad more info to explain the smog hollow newbie emu interurban design situation.
Dr. Bradfield had opted to copy some facets of the New York Subway system for the proposed electrified Sydney suburban network.
The NYS is where he got the prehistoric 1500 VDC overhead notion from plus also the wide width of the cattle cars.
Originally, the NSWR was built to UK notions, including loading gauge.
However, as the NSWR imported soot belching things plus cowboy cars from Uncle Sam in 1877, adjustments had to be made.
And, them adjustments have been made gradually ever since.
The general soot belching era NSWR was confined to a max body width of 9 feet.
It had originally been a max of 8 foot 6 inch width.
Dr. Bradfield wanted 10 foot 6 inch width cattle cars, thereby being able to perch 5 across the aisle.
So, when the underground was commenced, being newbie infrastructure, it could be built accordingly.
The suburban existing above ground network was adjusted to suit, platform wise, as the overhead started swinging from 1928.
The length of them wide body cattle cars being 63 feet.
When 8 car trains became the norm for the smog hollow cattle crush, some atmospheric platforms also had to be lengthened.
However, Dr. Bradfield had the underground platforms built to accommodate 8 cars.
I am mostly referring to the Main West, as that was my general stomping ground.
The overhead reached Parramatta in 1929, and eventually Penrith in 1955.
It was decided to extend the overhead all the way to Lithgow as soot belching things were struggling on the 1 in 33 grade.
Lithgow copped electric traction in 1957.
The single decker U-boats being built to a US Budd design with Metrovick traction gear, were ready, willing and able.
The U sets were built to narrow width standards to negate modifications to existing Blue Mountains infrastructure.
By that stage, standard cattle car body width generally being 9 foot 6 inch.
Car length being 67 foot, and roof height 13 feet.
The car width providing for 4 across the aisle in comfortable flip over leather seats.
With all stopper Mountains interurban services being just a smidgen under 3 hours rattling time, cattle comfort was necessary.
In 1964 the smog hollow cattle crush was exceeding the capacity of single deckers, so somebody concocted double deckers.
The first double decker trailer cars appeared to work with single decker motor cars.
Again, certain facets of the network needed modifications.
The next innovation was the design of medium width cattle cars, which could thereby be just a tad longer and still fit the loading gauge.
Medium width cars being 10 feet wide and 66 foot long.
Again some facets of the network needed adjustments, including platform stretching.
In 1970 the Blue Mountains cattle were exceeding the capacity of 10 car U-boats.
So, the brand newbie, most luxurious commuter trains in the world, were introduced with the double decker V sets.
These cars had to comply with the then narrow body width of 9 foot 6 inch.
But, the car length was a whopping 75 feet., plus roof height being 14 foot 6 inch.
Yep, once again, certain adjustments had to be made to the existing infrastructure, especially with curved platforms.
BUT, a big problem were the ten tunnels just east of Lithgow.
Them V setters were NOT going through them tunnels.
So, a major works programme was instituted to lower the tunnel floors.
Once completed, them V setters could finally arrive into Lithgow.
Lithgow, 3018 feet up in the atmosphere gets mighty chilly during winter time.
The U-boats were NOT air-con, just provided with gas (LPG) heating elements.
Blue Mountains cattle were very hardy folk until the appearance of the air-con V setters.
Management discovered that medium width suburban cars could sneak up the Mountains to Springwood with very little modifications.
Hence dunnies were slapped into subsequent Tangarbage sets, to be dubbed G sets.
Springwood cattle had been demanding increased services.
Yep, they got em, and they were NOT impressed when the first G set sneaked into the station.
With 5 across the aisle anti-vandal hard as nails seating, the provision of one dunny per four car set was not convincing.
Next into the fray was the ROCKET.
In 1981, NSW achieved the fastest train status, if you discount the WAGR Prospector DMU.
The XPT cattle cars being even longer at 79 feet, though within the narrow body width of 9 foot 6 inches.
Again, certain adjustments were necessary out in the boonies with old platforms.
Wide body emu cars could only venture as far west as Emu Plains (57 kms west).
Medium width emu cars can only venture as far west as Springwood (79 kms west).
Narrow width cars can run the entire network where pas jobs are permitted to stomp.
So, just because the newbie South Korean double decker interurbans don't fit, ain't a new drama.
I have not squizzed any design diagrams, but I am kinda thinking that management may want 5 across the aisle seating.
The Endeavour dmu sets were introduced from 1994.
Car length is a monster 82 foot, though squeezing within the narrow body width.
Two car and four car Endeavour sets hurtle around the regional areas cramming in 5 across the aisle on anti-vandal seats.
Our Bathurst Bullet being a two car Endeavour.
I can tell you that the 3 hour 45 minute, 240 kms ride does get painful on the posterior.
Plus, if Big Bernie decides to perch next to you, crikey you are in for a rough ride.
But, I cannot complain.
The Bullet is still much cheaper than driving das auto all the way to smog hollow.
And, with the smog hollow traffic chaos, you ain't gunna make it right into the city in 3 hours 45 minutes.
Unless that is, you depart Bathurst around midnight.
One freight facet that ran foul of the NSWR infrastructure was the Road-Railer notion.
Due to the overhead hanging in the atmosphere and consequent tunnel and overpass restrictions, double-stack container concept was verboten.
But, it was hoped that the road-railer concept might succeed.
I was down in Transport House attending the week of safe working review for the 2000 Olympics panic.
A clerk came running up to me holding a telegram detailing the road-railer concept.
WHAT is this; he bellowed; we can't have this on the network !
I calmed him down stating that the tests had been conducted a week earlier and proven a total failure.
The low hanging truck tyres had snagged Train Stop apparatus and other infrastructure within the inner metrop.
So, sadly, the road-railer concept was also verboten.
Maybe we shoulda listened to them Uncle Sam mob in the 1980s.
They stressed that passenger trains are worthless, and to get rid of the lot plus bulldoze all stations.
They advised that if our capitalistic wanna-be rich are ever gunna be rich, FREIGHT is where it is at.
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Old 12th March 2018, 12:57
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Hi a/s, really interesting stuff there.

Wow, you really know your beans.

Originally Posted by aussiesteve
Originally, the NSWR was built to UK notions, including loading gauge.
Understandable as it meant they could buy in existing technology, but in retrospect it probably condemned you to having a loading gauge woefully smaller than you need in a big country.

I'm always impressed by the height and width of American freight trains, but then I guess that over there the railway is nearly as old as the country (with all due respect to the native Americans who managed without technology for centuries). We have a TV series by an eccentric ex-politician who travels on the US railway (Mr Port-a-loo, as we affectionately call him), and I'm always struck by how comfy their chairs look.

Our latest trains have awful seats - "safety, fire resistant' compliant and by popular opinion of passengers made out of ironing boards. Not surprising, since every new piece of equipment nowadays is cheaper, nastier, less reliable and vastly more expensive than what went before. This is a poppycock excuse. Sumptuous sofas are fire resistant nowadays. They simply went as cheap as they could.

Things don't change for the better nowadays here. This I feel is a direct result of having Politicians, Civil Servants and Lawyers making decisions for a highly technical railway. As my dad used to say, a camel is a horse designed by a committee.

Mind you, I believe you have Connex over in oz. They were the first rail company I worked for here. When they left our shores, our 'loss' was your 'gain', arf arf.

Keep the faith

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Old 12th March 2018, 13:02
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Good morning Steve:
Most of what you say is well above my head i.e. cowboy cars, 10 car u boats, boonies just to name a few plus brevity is not a word that comes to mind.
BUT.......I just can't wait for more. Brilliant.
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Old 12th March 2018, 13:05
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And now I've seen this pop up on my union's Facebook page...Linky.....article

"Queensland Rail facing legal action because its new $4.4bn trains are basically illegal"

Seems like your media really doesn't like the railway, just like ours.

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Old 12th March 2018, 20:23
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Interesting post Steve. It sounds really complex on your railways. Richard
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Old 13th March 2018, 08:12
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G'day all,
Yes, I guess that my lingo can be difficult to constumble (understand).
But, our Strine did have foundations from UK Cockney.
With Irish and a lot of other influences.
We also invented some rhyming slang that became very popular in the USA with the gangsters.
Our government pas railways do cop some flack.
But, the privatized ones cop even more.
Yes BW, we got Connex here, mostly in Mexico (Victoria).
Since privatization, and a resulting very reduced railway community, everything must get hurled out to private industry for tender.
Gone are most of the actual old timer railway experts.
The NSWR was the second largest employer here in NSW.
The NSWR could build anything in house.
You had trad railway blokes from all facets who knew what was what.
Now we have university graduates who attempt to be management.
I know that this sounds like I have climbed up onto my fruit crate.
Down at the Domain in smog hollow, anybody could climb onto a fruit crate to speak their mind.
That be back in the good ole days.
So, mistakes are made when ideas get sent back and forth and pruned by cost cutting.
The 3801 debacle be one perfect example.
We can't make a puffer billy boiler here any more.
So, a newbie boiler was sourced from Deutschland.
Somehow in the translation process the dimension got misinterpreted.
The resulting boiler don't fit the Jolly Green Giant.
The USRR had to have tall loading gauge due to the brakemen riding ontop of the cars cranking on handbrakes.
Hence all overpass bridges and tunnels were built to allow a bloke to stand up ontop.
You wouldn't get me doing that.
But, before westinghouse air brake, and even after the initial introduction, to control US freight trains, brakemen rode up top.
As to the latest QR debacle, I must peruse the press release in detail.
But, yes, I guess that somebody got some dimension incorrect in the design.
Cowboy cars are just that, the USRR end platform cars used during the wild wild west days.
Boonies, well, anybody who resides beyond the black stump is out in the boonies.
Basically, us mob not residing in the city.
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Old 14th March 2018, 06:13
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G'day all,
I have perused the press report about the Queensland Railway emu debacle.
Firstly, I watch a tv series dubbed Media Watch on Aunty (ABC TV).
The Courier Mail crops up a number of times with alleged Scoops.
Other Media mobs then publishing the scoop verbatim.
Donald (you should know which Donald I am referring to) has a pet term for such news.
I also know what went on in smog hollow on the approach of the 2000 olympic games.
Yes, there appears to be some problems with this multi-tasked construction.
But, as I have stated earlier, the Aussie government pas rail mobs no longer build their own.
OK, much of the construction back in the good ole days was performed by private companies.
But, these companies were local and strictly supervised by the railway hierarchy.
Mistakes naturally occur, but with railway expertise overseeing the project, get quickly resolved.
Disabled access is naturally a legislated requirement for modern day public transport.
The Gold Coast is about 87 kms by rail south of Brissy city, so I guess that such qualifies as an interurban service.
And as such, a dunny would be convenient, especially for disabled passengers.
I am not sure if the dunny provided on the NSW Trains Endeavour set dmu would be disabled access.
A wheelchair is definitely not navigable along the narrow aisleway due to the 5 across the aisle seating.
But, the SRA Endeavour sets were introduced back in 1994.
The Sydney Trains G set (Tangarbage with a dunny) and H set (Oscar), must have the dunny locked off when performing suburban duty.
It is feared that vandalism would occur, plus that the dunny retention tank would become chockers.
Such sets when performing suburban duty not venturing to a car depot to decan frequently.
Our NSW Trainlink V sets naturally possess dunnies, but such would definitely NOT be disabled access.
Crikey, I remember back when you lifted the dunny lid you copped a blast of air and dust.
That sign hanging on the wall dictating; Do not use dunny while train is standing at a station.
The Lithgow car and wagon examiners didn't enjoy performing the brakes test on the Silver Streak at Lithgow.
Being parked on platform 1 in smog hollow, the train brakes could not be checked.
So, during the locomotive exchange in Lithgow yard, the car and wagon examiners would hafta trot around the Silver Streak.
This being mandated after some incidents occurred and the train was not being checked in Adelaide Keswick station neither.
Back then the Silver Streak also had dunnies that flushed onto the track.
This brakes exam got kyboshed when one of the car and wagon examiners copped a flushing.
Well, I guess that the Silver Streak patron couldn't espy any station at the time.
The smog hollow wide body steel emu cars were all painted red, and got dubbed Red Rattlers.
I remember riding one during the early 1970s, where my seat was mobile.
The bolts fixing the seat to the floor had snapped and on each track curve the seat would sidle across the floor.
The seat returning when hitting an opposite direction curve.
At least the seat was leather, unlike the hogger's seat up front.
Red rattlers only had a wooden stool for the driver to perch on.
AH, bring back them good ole days.
Suburban emu sets were originally targeted to identify the assigned maintenance depot.
B for Punchbowl; H for Hornsby, M for Mortdale, F for Flemington. W for single decker motor cars and double decker trailers.
U set interurbans were maintained at Flemo, I guess that the U target inferred Interurban.
But, after more car designs emerged, especially double deckers, the set identity became more of a design classification.
S for standard 4 or 8 car double decker, R for 6 car double decker, L for 2 car sets.
L sets didn't last long as they failed regularly only having the single motor car and set of batteries.
K sets were the first air-con suburban emu sets, prior sets only having forced ventilation.
V sets being the luxurious double decker interurbans.
C sets being the first chopper gate power control type.
T sets being Tangara, G sets being a Tangarbage with a dunny.
M for Millenniums, A for Waratahs, H for Oscars.
Today the colour of the target plate identifies the maintenance depot to which the set is allocated.
Oh, the NSWR has had numerous moniker changes over the years.
Currently we are Sydney Trains for the suburban network, and NSW Trainlink for the interurban and regional network.
The 1970s NSW PTC (Public Transport Commission) pinched the UK Late 7 Days logo.
In the 1980s we became the State Rail Authority.
The schism in 1996 (preparation for the privatization of the freight) created four operation facets of the SRA.
Railcorp being the infrastructure mob; Cityrail the suburban and interurban network; Countrylink the regional network.
And, my lot becoming Freightcorp.
The SRA was finally dissolved in 2003 when Freightcorp became Pacific National.
But, the pas section monikers lingered on for a bit longer.
I diverged there a tad.
The original QR emu fleet were 9 foot wide and 76 foot long with a roof height of 12 foot 6 inch.
Dunnies were provided on the ICE sets which eventually ran north to Rockhampton once electrified.
The ICE sets possessing 3 across the aisle seating may have provided for wheel chair navigation.
The suburban versions having 4 across the aisle seating would definitely not provide for wheel chair navigation.
The QR emu cars were much longer than loco hauled cars on the system which were only 57 foot long.
The QR electrified network needed much modification to permit the longer emu cars to operate.
This modification occurring at the time of electrification.
As to the comment that the newbie NSW Trains interurbans will be 20 centimetres wider than the current V sets, I find this a tad dismaying.
Crikey, that be 8 inches in the old lingo.
I would doubt that such a discrepancy could occur in engineering diagrams.
As commented previously, I kinda think that NSW Trains would intend 5 across the aisle seating for the newbie interurbans.
So, this might account for such a width discrepancy.
Medium width emu cars being shorter than the V setters, might have accounted for this situation in regards to seat capacity.
If this be factual, then a heck of a lot of infrastructure will need to be modified.
I won't know the specifics until I find a car diagram to take a squiz at.
Amusingly, the destination of Wickham shown on the NSW Trains emu is also a bit of a subtle jibe by the Media.
Trains no longer rattle to Wickham station, nor Civic, nor Newcastle.
Whinging motorists complaining about the level crossings, plus property developers succeeding in getting the track closed.
The Newcastle Flyer is no more.
Some tram thing is proposed to eventually replace the Big Trains to Newcastle.
Now, as to U boats, I have uploaded a photo showing a classic 4 car U set climbing to Zig Zag;
And, as to cowboy cars, there is also a shot of them on the ARHS vintage train;
The NSWR imported three cowboy cars from Uncle Sam in 1877.
The cowboy cars grew to a total number of 586 on the NSWR prior to suburban electrification.
Many were converted to tourist operation (provided with a dunny) after electrification commenced.
And 362 were still in service in 1971.
QR, TGR, SAR all had end platform cars originating from the USRR cowboy concept.
I am not sure about VR or WAGR.
The Granville prang in 1977 resulted in the end for most NSW wooden body rollingstock.
Though, I do doubt that any steel car would have sustained less damage inflicted by so much concrete.
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