Goods Train Formation

[HM181]

Originally Posted by wyvern

What are the rules about propelling on the big railway?

When you are propelling a train from the main line into a siding or vica versa, you must reach a clear understanding with the driver of the train, the signal box which controls that section of track.
The propelling movement must be controled by the PIC of the move, from the leading suitable vehicle, or a place of safety on the ground, or the PIC must proceed the movement on foot.
To control such a movement, the PIC must control the propelling movement with hand signals or back to back radios.
Normally I have used radios for these movements.
If radios are used, or hand signals to control the movement, the driver should stop the movement if he loses sight of the PIC or the radio transmission stops.
By stop I mean STOP right away.
When using radios, the PIC will maintain a constant transmission to the driver. This can be a voice transmission or a constant bleep on the radio.
The speed of these movements should be 5 mph and no faster
I have spent nearly eveyday of my working week propelling 65SLU trains into siding in and around Leeds.
Managers have radios that they can monitor what you are saying on the radios.
Strict Safety Critical Communications must be used at all times.

[wyvern]

Umm thanks. I only asked because many heritage lines dont have runaround loops and therefore have to propel in one direction.

[Wakey spotter]

Thats a very comprehensive and Proffesional account HM181.
Kris

[HM181]

This is my job, and I have been doing it for very long time.
If you rush mistakes are made, and you have to answer if you make a mess of what you do.
Therefore I do not rush and stick to a tried and tested method of work. The more you rush the more likley you are to have a problem.

[Wakey spotter]

A lot of Logic there HM181 !
Perhaps a lot of people overlook the importance the Shunter/ Ground Guy has in these type of operations.
I suppose really the Guy on the ground is actually Driving the Train with the Driver basically pressing a stop and a go button to his orders so to speak !
Kris

[John H-T]

On the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway we worked to the same rules outlined by HM181.

The works train is regularly propelled and the Guards Van is the leading vehicle The Guard must be passed out as a goods guard and know how to use the brake to help to control the train.

We also propell on loco hauled passenger services in which case the Guard has a clear view of the track ahead and is sitting next to the Vacuum brake ready to apply if necessary. Currently the lead vehicle is always either the LMS Inspection Salloon or a DMU trailer car.

Wakey spotter you are absolutly right: The driver may be at the controls but can do nothing until instruted to move by the guard/shunter.

Best wishes,

John H-T.

[rod2102]

Originally Posted by 62440

I don't know which rule book the Nene Valley Railway work to but the British Railways 1950 one says the following in rule 153.

(a) A freight train must not be run on any running line beyond station limits without a brake van in rear, unless authorised by the Operating Superintendent.
(b) Where a freight train is authorised to run without a brake van in rear, a brake van, or other suitable vehicle, for the use of the man in charge of such train, must be attached-when it can be conveniently done- as near to the rear of the train as practicable. Where no such vehicle is available the man may ride on the engine. A tail signal must be carried on the last vehicle.

It would seem that if authorised by the Nene Valley's Operating Superintendent it would have been perfectly acceptable. As I said above , I don't know which rule book the Nene Valley adopted back in, was it 1976? when they opened?

I don't have a gradient profile for the Nene Valley Railway, but would estimate the ruling gradient to be approx 1 in 1500, it's damn near flat all the way.

Regards, 62440.

many thanks for your info which does clarify,however ,next to the loco can in no way be described as close to rear of train as possible and as a preserved railway surely the demonstration should have been showing the norm rather than the exception, or am I just being pedantic ? after all, many visitors to preserved railways never ever saw an unfitted goods train.

[HM181]

Originally Posted by rod2102

many thanks for your info which does clarify,however ,next to the loco can in no way be described as close to rear of train as possible and as a preserved railway surely the demonstration should have been showing the norm rather than the exception, or am I just being pedantic ? after all, many visitors to preserved railways never ever saw an unfitted goods train.

I lived in loose coupled trains for 10 years everyday, on all types of trains and on a mirade of routes.
I went to Doncaster that many times, I could sit in the BV and know where I was from the outside smells, by the noise of the wheels on the track, and the flicks of the BV when it hit a wet patch on the track.

[David Stewart David]

Fully fitted (Class C) freight trains had to have a brake van, although wagons could be coupled in rear of it, as frequently happened on up Grimsby fish trains. Similarly fully fitted trains could be worked in reverse formation provided there were no more than (i believe) 20 vehicles between brake van and tail light. Some vans had no lamp bracket and I have seen tail lights swinging from couplings.

[TRP]

I saw similar on the Bluebell in August 2005 - see attached photo. The trains to remove the spoil from Imberhorne tip were marshalled with the brake van at the south end of the formation so that when the train was propelled towards the tip face from Kingscote, the wagons were the closest vehicles to the tip face. I didn't see the propelling move, so I don't know how this was controlled. However, to avoid losing time shunting, the train remained in this formation when running back to Horsted Keynes, meaning the brake van was right behind the loco, with the six open wagons trailing behind. I thought this was strange, so I asked a member of the crew at Horsted, who told me that it was ok as the train was fully fitted.

Tony