Liverpool: Would It Benefit From 2nd Station?

[dunks]

This has got me wondering especially with High Speed 2 starting to enter many discussions and the prospect of a branch line to both Manchester & Liverpool.

But just how can Liverpool accommodate any expansion of services at any level? And at the woefully cramped Lime St Station? Can you seriously imagine High Speed 2 using Lime St with all existing services aswell?

The Line to Wigan/Manchester is hampered by capacity constraints & slowdown for stopping services, it used to be quadruple to Huyton. The only real benefit being the 4-track main line between Edge Hill & Allerton, this being the primary main line but is intensively used by TPX & London/Crewe trains.

I had thought of the idea of a high speed terminal on the site of the long-closed Liverpool Central High Level, but this also bears the same cramped close-quarters like Lime St - probably worse, then you've to consider conflicting with Merseyrail Electrics on the Garston line.

Its just a great pity Liverpool Exchange was closed & redeveloped with indecent haste, spacious & accommodating for long expresses, it isn't hard to imagine Eurostar being comfortably fitted in there - and it had plenty of track capacity, it was also near Liverpool's business & commercial districts, and probably the most convenient for Pier Head.

Its not easy to see to see a modern day answer for Liverpool, but its clear Manchester benefits from maintaining 2 main line stations, and you could say the same for Birmingham.

Info: Liverpool Central High Level: Info: Liverpool Central High Level: http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/s...hl/index.shtml

Info: Liverpool Exchange: http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/s...ge/index.shtml

[swisstrains]

In other parts of the World, whenever a line meets it's maximum capacity, it's quite common to go underground and I think this is what should be considered for Liverpool. Although this would allow the High Speed 2 branch to run right into the city centre I don't really think that it's absolutely necessary and considerable savings could be made if a new International station and network interchange was built on railway land at Edge Hill.
Should High Speed 2 ever be built I assume it would follow roughly the route of the M6 motorway. If so the Liverpool branch could utilise the trackbed of the old Warrington Bank Quay Low Level - Stockport line from Lymm (near to the M6) into Warrington and then proceed along the Warrington - Ditton Junction line (suitably upgraded). At Ditton Junction it would either join the existing mainline from Runcorn to Liverpool or go underground as suggested above. The Warrington - Ditton Junction line is grossly underused at present with most activity being concentrated on the section between Warrington and Fiddlers Ferry Power Station but by the time HS2 comes along it could well be closed. Should freight traffic still need to be catered for it shouldn't be too difficult to construct a new single track dedicated freight line along the bed of the disused St.Helens Canal which runs parallel to the route for much of it's length. Just an idea

[dunks]

Originally Posted by swisstrains

In other parts of the World, whenever a line meets it's maximum capacity, it's quite common to go underground and I think this is what should be considered for Liverpool. Although this would allow the High Speed 2 branch to run right into the city centre I don't really think that it's absolutely necessary and considerable savings could be made if a new International station and network interchange was built on railway land at Edge Hill.
Should High Speed 2 ever be built I assume it would follow roughly the route of the M6 motorway. If so the Liverpool branch could utilise the trackbed of the old Warrington Bank Quay Low Level - Stockport line from Lymm (near to the M6) into Warrington and then proceed along the Warrington - Ditton Junction line (suitably upgraded). At Ditton Junction it would either join the existing mainline from Runcorn to Liverpool or go underground as suggested above. The Warrington - Ditton Junction line is grossly underused at present with most activity being concentrated on the section between Warrington and Fiddlers Ferry Power Station but by the time HS2 comes along it could well be closed. Should freight traffic still need to be catered for it shouldn't be too difficult to construct a new single track dedicated freight line along the bed of the disused St.Helens Canal which runs parallel to the route for much of it's length. Just an idea

Interesting, although Edge Hill feels more on the periphery of the city centre, not at the heart of it, but the vacant land would certainly be useful. I imagine in Manchester, Piccadilly would be adapted to accommodate HS2, where if we had a International facility in Liverpool at Edge Hill, it just emphasises Liverpool's inability to cope with such an expansion - especially on the existing network.

Mind you I think Liverpool's exisiting services need enhancement and expansion at the moment - especially when you compare with Manchester.

[swisstrains]

Originally Posted by dunks

Interesting, although Edge Hill feels more on the periphery of the city centre, not at the heart of it..............

Sorry Dunks I obviously didn't make myself clear. I am saying that a tunnel could(at a price) bring HS2 right into the actual city centre but for most purposes I think Edge Hill is close enough. After all Edge Hill is a lot closer to the city centre than the airport
City centre stations close to shops and offices are needed for daily commuters but I don't really see the need for an Inter-City/International station to be there as invariably most of the passengers using this type of station have usually come from elsewhere. As they will still need to use feeder transport to complete their journeys a new station outside the physical constraints of the city centre can better suit their requirements.

Originally Posted by dunks

............. it just emphasises Liverpool's inability to cope with such an expansion - especially on the existing network.

Yes they certainly didn't do Liverpool any favours when they closed Liverpool Central H.L. and Exchange stations.

Originally Posted by dunks

Mind you I think Liverpool's exisiting services need enhancement and expansion at the moment - especially when you compare with Manchester.

I agree. Liverpool has long been the poor relation.

[martin adamson]

Liverpool had a good range of services a few years ago having what they have now more or less, along with Alhpaline Wales services, Edinburgh express ones and CT services to Cambridge via Crewe, Brum and Leicester I think. Shame it lost all of these.

It would benefit from a second go by the Luftwaffe......!!!

[swisstrains]

Originally Posted by SouthernSteam

It would benefit from a second go by the Luftwaffe......!!!

This is a serious discussion. I'll treat that with the contempt it deserves.

[John H-T]

I spent a very enjoyable day in Liverpool the week before last and thought that the city is in good shape.

I don't know enough to make a worthwhile contribution to the general discussion but given the efforts the city has made over the last few years, it definately deserves to have a link to HS2.

Best wishes,

John H-T.

[DeeMersey]

Hello Folks,

I've been off-forum for a week or two with other commitments, so I'm quite interested to see this thread today. As a Scouser I feel able to comment a little.

I've often myself wondered how we could improve services into Lime Street. In fact, there is still a reasonable amount of capacity along the WCML Liverpool Branch through Runcorn; it doesn't carry nearly as much freight as it once did (and possibly less once the Olive Mount Chord is reinstated any week now), and the four-track line south of Edge Hill Junction usually only carries two LM and generally less than one VT service an hour; traffic from the Cheshire Lines via Warrington Central can still use the slow lines.

I suspect the issue for Liverpool will not be the branch but the main line itself; I reckon that HS2 will probably not seem cost effective for Merseyside. However, the plus from that is that more direct paths may become available on the existing WCML, which may well prove almost as good as having HS2.

Of course, the other missing link here is the former Liverpool Overhead Railway. It would probably be cheaper than a tunnel to re-instate a raised railway from Liverpool South Parkway above the Merseyrail Northern Line (thus creating platforms 6 and 7) to Brunswick, where it could pick up the course of the former LOR and re-join the existing railway at Seaforth & Litherland. This has the advantage of giving three northward options; directly north to Southport, or following the almost disused line to Aintree, and from there continuing north to Ormskirk and Preston, or past the famous racecourse to the former Fazakerley Junction onto the Kirkby-Wigan line.

This is all probably pie-in-the-sky, but its nice to think that people have the intelligence and vision to consider better options for Liverpool. I hope other places in Britain get similar consideration in this forum as well.

Take care all,

DeeMersey.

[swisstrains]

Originally Posted by DeeMersey

...............In fact, there is still a reasonable amount of capacity along the WCML Liverpool Branch through Runcorn; it doesn't carry nearly as much freight as it once did (and possibly less once the Olive Mount Chord is reinstated any week now......................

.........and with bi-directional signalling the capacity of the two-track section through Runcorn could be increased further still.
I wonder if we will ever see the Halton Chord re-opened to use some of this spare capacity?

Originally Posted by DeeMersey

............Of course, the other missing link here is the former Liverpool Overhead Railway. It would probably be cheaper than a tunnel to re-instate a raised railway from Liverpool South Parkway above the Merseyrail Northern Line.............

Interesting suggestion DM.
It would certainly be a great asset to the redeveloped waterfront.