Birth of a layout.

[swisstrains]

Originally Posted by Trev

...............I'm wondering what to do about the gap in the foam underlay between adjacent tracks as I don't want to mess about with ballast on the tracks themselves. Is it possible to get some scatter which gets anywhere near the colour of the track underlay?

Trev, I am sure that you will be able to get some scatter to match the colour of the underlay. When I last used the Peco underlay I filled in the gaps between running lines with ballast from the "Woodland Scenics" range.
If the gaps are between sidings you might not even need to match the colour because in reality it would probably be cinders.
If you have wide gaps between tracks have you considered using strips of the actual underlay, face-side down and secured with PVA?

[Trev]

I've mentioned before how disappointed I have been with N gauge. It's now reached a point where I am afraid I have had to rethink what I'm going to do with the fairly large (for me) investment I have made so far.

I've completed laying the track for my layout, and have spent quite a bit of time test running the locos that I have. And it's fair to say that 'disaster' is the only way that things can be described. The Class 73 is probably the worst offender. It constantly derails at one particular set of points, even though everything else goes through quite happily. I've tried tweaking the point as Swiss John described, but the derailment doesn't seem to be happening there. The loco is okay until the trailing bogie meets the plastic frog (this is in the facing direction, btw) and it then tries to go the other way. On two of the sidings, power does not seem to get through to the locos at all, and at least one of the self isolating points in the passing loop doesn't self isolate, which is a bit of a problem for a passing loop!

I'm loath to spend even more money on replacement points, so I have abandoned all hope of doing the model that I wanted, which was to be the yard and engine shed area of a preserved railway. Instead I'm going to simply lay a double track circuit in order to portray a section of main line running between a tunnel and a bridge. In order to minimise the prospect of derailments, this plan will include the minimal number of points.....for 'minimal', read 'none at all'! So it will basically be a landscape with a railway running through it. Locos and rolling stock swapped by hand

On the other hand, at least I am able to report that my locos work okay as long as they don't get near any points. The new Peak is an excellent runner, even at very low speeds, the Class 73 is smooth and responsive, and even the Class 33, now that it has been run in, is becoming more reliable.

A name for the layout? How about 'Trev's Folly Cutting'?

[meurglysIII]

maybe a stupid question for n guage, but have you tried adding weight to your models? i don't suppose there's much room to do this in the bodies, but it has helped enormously with my 00 stock. One advantage of the larger scale is you can always add liquid lead to your wagons & locos.

I also removed the plastic catch rails from a couple of troublesome points (older, small radius Peco ones in the storage sidings).

Hope you resolve this, I know how much work goes in to building layouts, seems a shame to have to scrap it.

[DSY011]

Trev,
I know that feeling. It was a level crossing problem for me. My Jinty and 14xx both jumped the rails at the level crossing, yet I could not find out why. I got the big mag glass with a light on it and checked the crossing from both sides but could find nothing wrong. I ran all 14 of my locos over the crossing without a hitch. Then I ran them the other way and the 2 of them jumped the rails again, even at fairly low speeds. I took the crossing back to the shop I got it from and asked them to see if they could find a fault. The guy just said "it happens", and gave me a new crossing. Problem solved.
I know that you are not in the same boat as I am and that you have had to go with care with your model, but you have invested a lot of money so far, so please do not give up to soon. Let me know what points they are and I will see if any of my spare could help you.
Syd

[swisstrains]

Hi Trev,
I can't believe that you are experiencing so many problems. You have had more setbacks in the short period that you have been modelling N-scale than I have had in 25 years.
I know you say that the Class 73 is a good runner generally but it sounds to me that one or more of its wheels are "out of gauge" and that's why it cannot track through the points properly. A loco of this size and wheel arrangement should be absolutely perfect on all types of points, that is assuming that your points aren't damaged.
The problem of power not reaching the sidings could be a number of things. Are your power feeders in the right position relative to the points? If they are then the problem is likely to be a poor contact between the point blade and the stock rail. You can test for this by a bit of gentle prodding with a small screwdriver with the power on. The electrical contact can usually be restored by cleaning between the blade and stock rail with a cottonbud soaked in alcohol (not Newcastle Brown ) Also slightly bending the tip of the blade (as previously) tends to give better electrical contact. I would be surprised if you are having contact problems because these only usually arise after plenty of use when the track starts to get dirty unless, of course, you have somehow managed to damage the points when installing them. Do the points still have a good positive spring action? There is also the possibility that the rail-joiners are not making a good contact. Again you can test the joiners by prodding the rail gap with a small screwdriver with the power on to see if your loco moves. If you assembled and dismantled the track several times before finally attaching it to your board the joiners might have become slack. They might need a gentle squeeze with some small pliers.
I can't come up with any suggestions for the problems you are having with points not isolating. Assuming your electrical feeder connections are correct it is impossible for Peco Setrack points not to isolate. There is a physical gap of about 2mm to stop the current flowing!! If I remember correctly there are two wires beneath the point separated by an insulation sleeve but even if this insulation had failed it would result in a short circuit rather than stopping the points from isolating.
I assume you are using Peco points because some of the foreign makes (e.g. Minitrix) have small wire links that have to be removed to make them into self-isolating points.
I really hope that you can get to grips with these problems Trev because I think you will soon get bored with the hobby if you have to resort to a simple loop with no points.

[Trev]

Originally Posted by meurglysIII

maybe a stupid question for n guage, but have you tried adding weight to your models?

I feel like adding weight to it alright.....and then dropping the bloody lot over the Humber Bridge.

Just been having another look at things, and the passing loop still does not isolate. Or rather, one side of it does isolate when the points are set against it, but not the other.

One of the sidings which yesterday did not get power through now does, but to compensate for this, one which did work properly yesterday, now doesn't.

The Class 73 still derails its trailing bogie over one particular point, and it's always the trailing bogie, no matter which end of the loco is leading. If the loco is turned around and ran through the points, the bogie which previously derailed will then go through whereas the the other one (now being the trailing bogie) will of course derail.

I've had railway models for around 25 years (always OO) and ran trains around temporary set ups on the floor and on the table, and I've never had anything like the problems I've had with N. I left a temporary track formation and rolling stock on my bedroom floor for a month once when I lived at my parents house, and it all still ran perfectly despite dust, the occassional attentions of the family dog and me rolling in at 3am on a Sunday morning!

I know that the 'railway in the landscape' idea sounds dull, but it's the only way that I can think of to derive some pleasure from the investment that I've already made. I'm certainly not going to throw any more cash at it with regard to track. At least I'll be able to try out some scenic techniques for when I can gain some space for the OO stock that I have.

Really beginning to regret my N adventure now.

[swisstrains]

Just been having another look at things, and the passing loop still does not isolate. Or rather, one side of it does isolate when the points are set against it, but not the other.

With respect Trev, If you are using Peco Setrack points this situation is impossible. Could you have accidentally attached a power supply between the two sets of points as this would give rise to the situation you describe?

One of the sidings which yesterday did not get power through now does, but to compensate for this, one which did work properly yesterday, now doesn't.

Once again, assuming your power feeders are in the correct places, this has to be poor connections. A small screwdriver and a short piece of wire as a jump-lead should soon find the fault.

The Class 73 still derails its trailing bogie over one particular point, and it's always the trailing bogie, no matter which end of the loco is leading. If the loco is turned around and ran through the points, the bogie which previously derailed will then go through whereas the the other one (now being the trailing bogie) will of course derail.

Unless the points are damaged I still think the Class 73's wheels are out of gauge.

I've had railway models for around 25 years (always OO) and ran trains around temporary set ups on the floor and on the table, and I've never had anything like the problems I've had with N. I left a temporary track formation and rolling stock on my bedroom floor for a month once when I lived at my parents house, and it all still ran perfectly despite dust, the occassional attentions of the family dog and me rolling in at 3am on a Sunday morning!

You certainly can't treat N-scale in this way but in the right environment and with careful handling you can get it to be very nearly 100% reliable. From what other modellers say 00/H0 isn't without its problems.

..............At least I'll be able to try out some scenic techniques for when I can gain some space for the OO stock that I have.

Positive thinking Trev.

[Trev]

Originally Posted by swisstrains

With respect Trev, If you are using Peco Setrack points this situation is impossible. Could you have accidentally attached a power supply between the two sets of points as this would give rise to the situation you describe?

I can't quite believe it myself John, but it happens! There is only one power lead on the entire layout, and that is outside of the loop.

here is a diagram.
\ is a right hand point and / a left.

----------------main line----------------------------------------------
a\-----b\------------loop---------------------------/c
-----------siding-------------------------

When points 'a' and 'c' are switched for 'loop', then 'main line' is isolated. Point 'b' seems to energise both the loop and the siding even if it's just set for the siding. I first noticed it when I was trying to bring a loco out of the siding while leaving a loco standing in the loop. Point 'b' seems to be the errant one, but I won't know for sure until I detach it from 'a' and test it on its own.

Originally Posted by swisstrains

Unless the points are damaged I still think the Class 73's wheels are out of gauge

I ran the 73 through the point very slowly earlier this evening, and as far as I can work out the problem happens as soon as the trailing bogie (and it's always the trailing bogie, irrespective of whichever end of the loco is leading) reaches the plastic dead frog. I've tried shaving the height of the frog very gradually with a craft blade, but so far its made no difference.

Model railways a relaxing hobby? Ha!! I think I'll take up lion taming!

[swisstrains]

Originally Posted by Trev

I can't quite believe it myself John, but it happens! There is only one power lead on the entire layout, and that is outside of the loop.

here is a diagram.
\ is a right hand point and / a left.

----------------main line----------------------------------------------
a\-----b\------------loop---------------------------/c
-----------siding-------------------------

When points 'a' and 'c' are switched for 'loop', then 'main line' is isolated. Point 'b' seems to energise both the loop and the siding even if it's just set for the siding. I first noticed it when I was trying to bring a loco out of the siding while leaving a loco standing in the loop. Point 'b' seems to be the errant one, but I won't know for sure until I detach it from 'a' and test it on its own.

I agree, Point "b" is the one at fault. In fact it appears to have more than one fault. The jumper wires that carry the power across the plastic frog beneath the point appear to be touching. This would normally result in a short circuit but it isn't happening in this case because the point blade/s are not making proper contact with the stock rails either. When you were trying to drive the loco out of the siding with another parked in the loop this is what I think was happening. You set the points in the direction of the siding but the blade did not make proper contact so the current passed down the stock rail and "through" the loco in the loop. It then returned back down the other rail to the points. The poor blade connection stopped it causing a short-circuit but the touching wires (underneath the point) allowed it to travel into the siding and "through" that loco before returing back down the other rail. Both locos have a flow of current through them (in series) and both will therefore try to move. (The same thing can happen with Electrofrog points if the blades aren't making contact properly.)

Originally Posted by Trev

................. I've tried shaving the height of the frog very gradually with a craft blade, but so far its made no difference ....................

Very risky Trev. Altering the point to suit the 73 might ruin it for other locos.

[Trev]

I spent this afternoon testing each point for its isolating properties, and have discarded four. The Class 73 has been run through each point in every possible direction, and apart from the one it had trouble with previously, has come through with flying colours.

Lifting the track was an interesting experience. I just hope that I step onto the trackpins which disappeared into the bedroom carpet before my wife does!!!!

A new track plan has been devised and tested, and it works! Hoping to get this one pinned down tomorrow, but Hull Kingston Rovers play Leeds tomorrow, and it's live on TV, so progress may be slower than planned.