Driver Only Operation - useful info
 

So far I've kept tight-lipped about the battle that is in progress between the rail unions and the government over the introduction of 12 car driver only operation on the Gatwick Express.

But for those interested, the BBC has rather sensibly produced a short video explaining the problems.


Link ....https://www.facebook.com/BBCSouthTod...8371385586784/

(PS - I'm not looking for an argument, and will happily have a civilised discussion with anyone who may have a dissimilar opinion).

BW

I have to agree with the last comment from BBC, it is safer to keep a guard on the train, even if the CCTV was live, and the camera's were always clean.
Just my thoughts.

As an Ex-guard even though from 1990 until DOO was brought in, I too am against No guards on trains. If there is a disabled person in need of help to board or alight at an unmanned station, is the driver then going to be expected to leave the cab and assist, thus delaying the train?

I am a little confused by what's being proposed because whilst both sides of the dispute refer to the proposals as Driver Only Operation, Southern have said that the Guard/Conducter will remain on the train to assist passengers, but no longer be responsible for closing the doors as this will be done by the Driver, whereas the Union has said it will be that the Driver will be the only member of staff on board.

Which is correct?!

Tony

Long story short.....the guard's role is being changed from being safety critical to just a dogsbody. So the the train can now run legitimately whether they're onboard or not. In time they will disappear completely. The plan which is no secret is to vastly reduce the number of railstaff inline with the McNulty report which was commisioned by the Tory government.

Ultimately there will be few, if any booking office staff, platform staff or on-train staff.

I have a nightmare in which the only person you will ever see on station property will be a solitary school-leaver, who is cheery and very clever with the Ipad that the company has given him, but is a bit lacking in railway knowledge. If you ask him a question, he'll Google it for you.

I hope I'm wrong. :mad:

BW

As said by Bramleyman, I was trained as a guard by British Rail and it was the guard who was in overall charge of the train. and whilst I always have tried to move forward with times, no railofficial has ever tried to answer one of my questions, namely what happens in the event of say a serious collision which rendersd the driver either unconcious or dead. Who on the train can place detonators on the line or contact either Control or signaller to STOP TRAFFIC and avoid further turmoil.
I appreciate track circuit is in place on most routes but not them all.
Whilst I appreciate the overall cost of guards over the cost of putting track circuit into place over all passenger routes.
The role of an on train guard / or qualified other rail official is in my mind paramount.


David

So, even if the Southern plan at the moment is to retain the Guard/Conductor, there will be nothing to stop them removing them in the future. In which case, this shouldn't happen - I think safety will be compromised even if this plan is implemented, let alone removing the Guards altogether.

And why is it only Southern that want to introduce Driver Only Operation - if it was so good, then every TOC would be doing it.

It's seems to be all about cost cutting and while some savings could possibly be made in some areas, I think these proposals would be a bad move.

Tony

Well there is alot of DOO already around, but usually in 4 or 8 car trains and often with platform despatchers at the busier stations.

But there are alot of negative changes all happening at once;

1) Trains are getting longer at the same time as guards are being removed - this is what's happening on the Gatwick Express with the new12 car trains

2) Platform despatch staff are being reduced at the same time.

3) Trains are getting busier/fuller year on year

4) The railways own statistics (RSSB) show that the majority of passenger deaths & injuries occur at the "Platform Train Interface".

And this is being done to reduce companies' operating costs....passengers' won't see a reduction in ticket prices, but they are being subjected to more danger.

This is why things are coming to a head, sadly.

BW

Thank you very much Davat for your response.

As an ex Company Safety Officer albeit in an Airline, I can think of at least a dozen reasons why OMO is a ludicrous idea, especially on a crowded 12 coach train in the rush hour. Seeing the BBC clip makes it even worse.
1. A passenger taken ill in coach L. How is the driver contacted? How long before he can get to coach L to assess the situation? How long before he can initiate action?
2. A blockage on the line (shopping trolley), how does the driver report it and protect his train at the same time?
3. What happens in a collision? (Already mentioned).
4. A dirty lens on camera on coach L; does the driver risk moving or does he walk the kilometer there and back to clean it?
5. Sun into camera along the train, how can the driver be sure of door safety before he moves off?
It doesn't require a superbrain to see the pitfalls.
If Southern are not prepared to write a fixed indemnity of £10.000.000 for ANY death or at least £1,000,000 for any injury due to OMO, then they cannot think any more about this harebrained scheme.

P.S. I am not a union man; retired 26 years.

My feeling is that the downgrading of the guards is just the first step towards Driver only trains. If one TOC gets DO trains accepted the rest will be pushed to follow. Richard

G'day,
Driver Only commuter trains exist in many countries, including some regions of Australia.
And, next year, Driverless commuter trains will commence operation in smog hollow Sydney.
One facet of Driver Only commuter train operation, the need for the driver to stand up to check the platform being a physical benefit.
The ongoing obesity epidemic afflicting the so called civilized world also now pervading railway staff.
Is the guard really necessary for modern day safe working systems ?
Manual train protection in suburban smog hollow is virtually impossible due to traffic density.
Bunging the track shorting clip down on an adjacent running line being about it before another train appears.
In smog hollow, the guard is situated in the middle of the 8 car train to perceive curved platforms.
Can't go dragging cattle jammed in doors not espied around the curved platform.
Only on Waratah sets is the guard returned to the rear, the 8 car A set being indivisible and therefore no midtrain cabs.
However, with interurban trains plus suburban trains operating outside the Inner Metrop region, the guard must be at the rear.
Differing signal format found in the Outer Metrop region necessitated suburban guards changing locations at places like Berowra.
Hence a delay to the Outer Metrop suburban train occurs at such locations.
OK, for such services today, A sets could be utilized thereby negating any delay as the guard is permanently at the rear.
But, prior to the introduction of the A set, all other 8 car suburban trains required the guard to relocate.
Management had also concocted that the guard should become mobile within the train, to assume security duty.
But, the union quickly kyboshed such notions.
Plus, to be fair, during peakhour periods, the guard would have difficulty moving through the crammed full trains.
There are NO guards remaining on regional country passenger trains operating in NSW.
Mind you, we don't got very many regional pas jobs here in NSW today.
The driver being responsible for all necessary safe working procedures.
The onboard Passenger Services Superintendent only assisting with basic duty under direction of the driver.
And, with many PSS staff being female wearing high heeled shoes, one does wonder how manual train protection would be implemented.
Back in them good ole days, the Guard aboard the Silver Streak could not hoof through the train.
His caboose not provided with an end vestibule door.
He would need to jump down and sprint along beside the train.
Naturally NO Guard remains on that Silver Streak today, it being a designated WB (without brakevan) train.
I would presume that if and when ATP (PTC) is actually installed on the smog hollow Metrop, that the guard will become history.
Regarding Driver Only freight train operation, yes, this I have participated in, I have not participated in Driver Only pas operation.
DOO is perfectly OK, providing that the necessary infrastructure is in place.
This was generally not the case where I was performing DOO.
The combination of dilapidated track, locomotives and rolling stock did result in some unsavoury situations.
Manual train protection was not feasible, and such equipment was not provided.
Providing that all staff knew where they were at all times on the network, then potential collision was not a drama.
But, attempting to divide a stalled train during darkness by yourself on a 1 in 40 grade with NO walkways was a DRAMA.
OR, working underneath a wagon when the brake rigging had collapsed, during darkness also on a grade, likewise.
The rigmarole of a break-away, and the SIX times that you hoof the train to restore the situation by yourself.
Go back to find the situation, crank on handbrakes on the rear portion, return to the locomotive to hurl the brake valve into emergency.
OK, you coulda done that upon loosing the air, BUT, if it be just a burst hose, you ain't gunna find it especially in the dark.
You cannot close the brake tap on the wagon of the front portion of a break-away without the brake valve being in emergency.
The back pressure created can release the brakes and away it might go UNSTOPPABLE.
Hoof back to then shut that brake tap, and return to the locomotive to restore the air and then commence setting back.
ARE WE THERE YET ?
Bang crunch whallop, OK, snagged it, so give it a stretch to make certain.
Put the brake valve into emergency, and hoof back to hopefully where you remembered the break-away wagons are.
Yes, you jotted down the wagon code numbers.
Connect the hoses and open the air tap.
Wind off any hand brakes applied, to what was the rear portion.
Hoof back up front and restore the air and check the ETU monitor to ensure that you have legal pressure at the rear.
Make a service application to ensure that the system becomes fully equalized after that release, noting the ETU monitor.
Hallelujah, you can now resume the voyage.
If however, the auto knuckle had broken or pulled out, then you have even more hassles.
Naturally Train Control is blowing in your ear frequently about the now massive delay incurred.
I guess that the Lac Megantic DOO incident in Canada would proffer the worst case scenario possible.
Though, the same result could have occurred with two man crewing.
Again, providing that the necessary infrastructure is in place, then DOO is not a nightmare.
I am though a tad wary of DRIVERLESS train operation.
Steve.