Four ex SRA execs give Sydney Metro a critique
 

Four former NSW rail executives severely criticize the newbie private Metro being constructed in smog hollow Sydney.
Two existing segments of the heavy rail network will be converted for the incompatible Metro system.
Currently Northern commuters can access the stations on one of these segments between Epping and Chatswood.
Also lower north shore and smog hollow patrons via northbound services.
In future, those northern commuters will need to change trains at Epping to the private system to access those stations.
One station being Macquarie University which accounts for a large portion of patronage on the line.
The Metro north section scheduled for opening in 2019 requires this segment to be taken out of service for 9 months in 2018.
I can well imagine the traffic nightmare in the region of Macquarie University during that period.
The Metro north service will terminate at Chatswood where patrons must again change trains back to the existing system.
Yes BW, Metro trains will be DRIVERLESS.
The second and longer segment of Metro trains will be the extension from Chatswood into the city and then to Bankstown.
This segment scheduled to open in 2024.
Hence Metro north partons will have a long wait at Chatswood if they don't wanna also buy a Sydney Trains ticket.
The second segment is a major source of complaint by former executives as it requires a large section to be converted.
The existing Banka running from Sydenham to Bankstown will be taken over by Privatization and converted.
Banka circles currently provide much of the inner suburban rail commuting.
Clockwise from Central via Sydenham to Bankstown and continuing around to Lidcombe and then back to the city.
Or anticlockwise vice-versa.
So, privatization will result in existing rail services to terminate at Bankstown having travelled anticlockwise and return.
The Banka is currently also an additional route for the existing system to access the city during trackwork elsewhere.
This will not be possible after conversion.
Some elaborate structure is currently being erected in Sydney yard.
This aerial iron work resembling a fly-over bursts out of some old terrace buildings in Lee Street to descend into the yard.
I doubt that this is involved with the Metro scheme as it would not mesh in with the proposed route.
I would propose that it be something to do with the other private thing making a mess in smog hollow, the SLR.
Currently the Sydney Light Rail terminates on the elevated concourse at Central in a balloon loop.
This iron mongery might be an attempt to link the existing SLR route at Ultimo through Central and up George Street.
The gradient of this metalwork being way too steep for any heavy rail equipment.
But, that would mean the loss of one or two platforms in Central of the existing heavy rail system.
Probably platform 15 which would permit continuing out through the concourse and connect with the balloon loop.
That is after some major brickwork alterations.
Or as in the Silver Streak movie, hurl an F unit up through the concourse to make the hole.
The Metro south segment also does not access Mascot airport.
Hence any Private citizens will need to change trains at Central to then ride the rattler to Mascot.
WHY are we inflicted with this scurry for private transport dollars ?
The closure of Newcastle station and line from Hamilton Junction is also Privatization in pursuit of dollars.
Yes, some private Tram thing will eventually rattle between Hamilton and Newcastle.
Gone are the days of the Newcastle Flyer.
Now, you gotta get out at Hamilton and catch an omnibus to continue into Newcastle.
AH, yes motorists didn't like being delayed at the level crossings between Hamilton and Newcastle.
They can just swerve around a tram thing.
And, developers can erect numerous high rise apartments on old Newcastle rail yard.
OK, I know that our smog hollow heavy rail system is beyond hope.
Smog hollow is beyond hope.
With all roads leading to Rome, er um, smog hollow city, naturally there is congestion.
Had the full Dr. Bradfield plan been implemented in the 1930's, numerous rail circle patterns would have resulted.
It is futile to increase the length of trains, underground platforms are only 8 cars long.
The dwell times at stations now result in numerous delays.
Double deckers were an innovation back in the late 1960s.
But, with in excess of 1600 cattle attempting to get in and out of only 16 doors, delays are inevitable.
Yes, the Private mob will have single deckers with more doors and far fewer seats.
You gotta stand Grandma.
So dwell times will be reduced, so they reckon.
Ah, bring back the good ole days of puffer billies and Evans cars in suburban Brissy.
10 seated cattle confined in each of the 9 compartments with outward opening doors.
Yes, if you got in a crowded compartment, you could jump the seat partition into the next compartment.
Kick fellow cattle in the neck as you did.
The peawhistle blew, followed by a machine gun volley of doors being slammed shut.
Numerous station attendants all wearing the QR pith helmet, running along to ensure that all doors were shut.
The guard blowing his peawhistle and holding the green flag.
The puffer billy whistle blew, then surged into motion.
The guard waving the second right of way from his caboose copping the whistle acknowledgement from up front.
All was well until the next station stop.
I was stunned when the first SX car set arrived at my station.
Stainless steel with an aisle down the centre between the flip over seats, and AIR operated doors.
You didn't hafta get yer finger nails clipped when dropping the Evans door sash window to reach out and work the handle.
I know that some Japanese narrow gauge emu commuter sets have double deckers.
But, double deckers won't fit the QR loading gauge.
QR also don't have them passenger pushers that are found on Japanese stations.
Shove em in before the doors close.
I will just hafta wait and see what impact this private thing has on smog hollow commuting.
Steve.

Public/private with different gauge stock sounds like a dog's dinner in the making Steve.
With so much original infrastructure removed, whatever happens will be a nightmare.

G'day Master Cutler,
The rail gauge is the same, but the rollingstock loading gauge is different.
The tunnels being bored are not capable of double decker emu cars.
I would also presume that the overhead supply will be different, though don't know the details of the Metro.
Yes, privatization is all the go down-under.
Steve.

Thanks Steve, we also have a potential problem waiting in the wings here in the U.K. with the sub contractor Cariion on the brink of receivership.
They are a major supplier to Railtrack and involved in many large infrastructure projects.
If they go bust there's no telling what the knock on effect will be.

Disruption, privatisation, can't think why these posts made me think of HS2. Has HS2 been discussed on here, I can't recall it. An Eurosceptic said it was an EU directive, they want a high speed system across Europe in order to rapidly deploy troops in case of an uprising. Have the experts any opinions?

Some interesting points there.

Purely my opinion, but I think it's to do with 'Interoperability' (horrible word). The EU is all about having 'one standard' across all countries. And for railways it's a very sensible idea - that any train can operate on any system in any country throughout Europe.

But I read that it has has very high standards, which makes infrastructure projects very expensive. If I understood it correctly, HS2 would be expected to provide width/height measurements to EU standards that are way beyond the UK loading gauge, and this is an enormous waste of money. (Shame really, as I deeply believe that we MUST have double-decker trains, and the sooner we start building infrastructure for it, the better. However, I digress).

As we've discussed here before, European trains don't operate through the Channel tunnel into our standard system, so Interoperability is irrelevant in the UK. But the EU wouldn't budge.

I won't get into the politics of Brexit here, whatever anybody believes is their right and their business, but it does seem a shame that the EU won't bend over this. Perhaps when/if we come out of Europe, we can at last do things to UK standards.

And as an afterthought, I wonder if ERTMS - the European in-cab signalling system (which is due to be installed here but is already significantly delayed), will be dropped in favour of a Heath Robinson lash up. Which is what 'Make do and mend' Britain always does ?

Just my cynical opinion. Feel free to demolish it if you want.

BW

PS: Apologies to aussiesteve for hijacking his thread> Sorry Chap! ;-)

Thanks for that BW, I haven't got an opinion, but then it wouldn't matter if I had. From what I have seen of the overcrowding on the West Coast Line something needs to be done. Would the government have decided to spend at least 50 billion, while being several trillions in debt, and making cuts everywhere, if it wasn't for the EU (orders must be obeyed without question). Not sure the destruction of the countryside is worth the twenty minutes that it will save, London to Birmingham. The last time I looked a ticket was £110, although I have travelled, in the past, for a few quid, off peak. Can't see HS2 bringing the price down, but more likely raise them. Those sort of prices make my eyes water.

I thought that the GCR was built to the European loading gauge to accommodate a future connection to France via a tunnel.

That is a commonly quoted "fact", but I think it was only half true.

It seems the GCR London extension did have a slightly larger loading gauge, but not full continental size.

G'day BW,
Double deckers are not really a solution when doorway access becomes a problem in regard to station dwell times. The NSW government in consort with the federal government here concocted what was a brilliant idea in the mid 1970s. Decentraliztion. Move people OUT of smog hollow Sydney to regional cities. Alas, the scheme faltered due to a number of reasons. I must say that I was most impressed with the French TGV double decker set that I rode in 2008. So, for long distance trains, yes, double deckers can be a viable concept. But, for suburban commuting, things just slow down too much. I thought that the UK did trail a double decker emu train some eons ago. But, found the door access problem caused delays due to added dwell times.
Steve.

Hi aussiesteve

Yes, my comments were really meant for HS2 and other high-speed/intercity lines. Their trains stop for several minutes which makes it possible.

When I'm driving over commuter lines the aim is for 20 seconds as a 'door open time'. That's fine on the quieter outer stations or off-peak at the bigger ones, but it can be much longer.

And yes, there was a trial done quite a few decades ago on the Southern or South-Eastern region, can't remember which but I'm sure one of our historians can add some details.

To my mind it was a half-hearted attempt because that part of the country has the highest number of tunnels and bridges, built to the tightest of gauges.

So the train wasn't a true double-decker, more a deck-and-a-halfer. I always thought the photos reminded me of a toy dolls house, with people squashed in - smiling for the camera but looking rather uncomfortable.

I suspect the trial train was built with the best of intentions by its designers, but that the politics was the Bigwigs never really wanted it to happen.

And this is a backwards-looking country that resists change of any sort. I'm told that when the first double-decker busses were conceived in the UK there was a wave of opposition.

The more things change, the more they stay the same - as the French say.

BW.

Those Southern double deck coaches were of Bullied's design. I had not realised that they were only withdrawn from use in October 1971.

More info here for those interested.

http://bulleid4dddoubledeck.co.uk/history.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD

G'day Philip and BW,
A decker and a half, HA, makes me wonder.
I will be able to google again when the local library reopens the doors jan 29th.
So, have heaps of stuff to check out, including the Southern double deckers.
Me el cheapo home www access dwindles very fast if I attempt to google and snavel large files.
Our NSW best double deckers, the V set interurbans will be replaced in the not too distant future.
I will definitely miss them, when the modern things appear.
Steve.

It sounds very similar to the complaints that passengers have been making about the recent new 387 and 700 commuter trains.

Nothing really changes.:rolleyes:

BW

Swiss railways are fanatical about punctuality and they don't appear to have a problem with double-deck commuter trains. Make the doors and stairways large enough and double-deck trains will have minimal effect on dwell times. The British trains that you refer to were built to our restricted loading gauge and were horrible congested things with lots of slam doors a far cry from the modern Double-deck trains that are used throughout Mainland Europe.

G'day BW and John,
Those Bulleid "deckers and a half" do appear a tad awkward in design.
The Long Island Railroad (I think) designed a similar decker and a half to squeeze into their standard height cars.
Reminds me of the old double decker sheep wagons that we had here, coded GSV and BSV.
At least cattle were not cramed into double deckers, except for them in smog hollow.
We have not carted stock via rail here in NSW for many moons, though we continue to cart cattle in smog hollow.
The worst wagon to find at the rear of a WB train that you had to perform an air brake continuity on was a BCW.
You would grab the air hose and open the air tap then quickly let go of the hose and run.
Them cattle had a good aim out through the wagon end slats when startled by any loud noise.
Eventually return to close the air tap after them cattle had done their business.
You had to remember to cart your gloves with you to perform such duty.
We also had to hoof back when ever the train was stopped in a siding to check on them sheep or cattle.
Report to Train Control if any were down in the wagon thereby possibly crushed or suffocated by the others.
So, most of us were not too unhappy when we ceased carting stock via rail.
All of the original smog hollow double decker suburban emu sets had forced ventilation.
Some continue in service today.
Then in 1981 the first air con sets were introduced with the K set.
These had standard resistance traction and clasp brakes, but were heavier due to the motor alternators and aircon gear.
Hence they are more sluggish in acceleration and also braking.
But, the sealed window style implemented was altered to Beclawat style with sliding opening sections at the top.
Smog hollow cattle complained about sniffing the exhaust fumes of fellow cattle.
The windows were again changed to a style with inward opening top section.
But, then with all of these flip in window sections open, the air con system can't handle the temp difference and overloads.
During a peak hour squirt (suburban emu) ride last year in smog hollow, the guard made numerous admonishments.
Smog hollow cattle will not exercise to hoof along the platform, they congregate near the platform steps or seats.
During the 2000 Olympics scare approach period, seats were removed from distant parts of platforms.
With standees cluttering the train doorway sections, egress and ingress becomes a slow process.
For example an 8 car K set can seat 896 cattle plus cram in almost the same number of standees.
Hence not only the doorways can be congested, but also the aisleways further delaying egress and ingress.
As this supposed express service wandered westward-ho it got tardier after each stop.
By the time that I forced my way off at my destination, the train was 10 minutes late with 30 kms still to journey.
This would have delayed the following trains also, and so it goes on.
Doorways are 1.69 metres (5.5 feet) for internal sliding double doors, and slightly larger for outward swinging plug doors.
By contrast a Melbourne MET 6 car single decker emu can cart 580 seated and further 816 standees.
Three doorways exist for each MET car.
Thusly, smog hollow 8 car double decker with a total of 1750 cattle, versus 6 car MET single decker with 1396 cattle.
The Met train would have far less dwell times at stations, smog hollow 16 doors versus MET 18 doors.
OK, the Melbourne MET network would probable be less than half that of the smog hollow suburban network.
Solution, get half them smog hollow cattle OUT into the NSW country regional areas.
Yes, I was most impressed by the swish Swiss train services that I rode during 2008.
But, I didn't journey for over 90 kms and still find myself within the same megacity suburban region.
Those Swiss rail journeys starting in cities and then quickly escaping into the countryside.
As with here, there being greater distances between regional stations, train speed can be increased.
We call smog hollow suburban trains squirts because it be a squirt of power followed by a squirt of brakes.
Maybe we should get rid of the prehistoric overhead, and bung diesels up front and let the cattle ride the roofs.
I also didn't espy any graffiti in Switzerland, whereas graffiti exists everywhere in smog hollow.
The day that a herd of Swiss schoolbrats jumped onboard der zug, my expression must have changed.
But, to my surprise, yes they were kids, but they behaved themselves, mostly whispering when chatting.
Locals with whom I was seated must have noticed my change in expression.
After discussing the situation of kids behaving themselves and no graffiti, they commented; We love our country.
Enough said.
In smog hollow we now have so called Quiet cars on each train.
But, regardless, cattle continue to yell into their stinking mobile phones.
Most windows have graffiti tags scratched into the glass, and litter rolls around the floor.
Steve.

Hi Steve. You were lucky if you didn't come across any graffiti in Switzerland. Believe me, there is plenty of it, particularly on railway property.
Generally speaking Swiss kids do still tend to be better behaved than those in the UK (and obviously Oz) but I don't think it will be long before they bow down to the influences of the modern world.