Northern rail services.
 

On observation from the past few weeks I have noticed that Northern rail are cutting down on maintainance.
Trains are no longer anywhere near clean and it is difficult to see the paint on some trains.
Never has this company had trains in such an awful state.
To get to work I use two train companies- Northern and First.
The latter of these companies is not my favourite and I have had many an argument with them.

At least First can keep their trains clean and actually keep them in a servicable state.

Northern rails trains have been getting dirtier and some of the doors have to be opened and closed by hand when unlocked by the gaurd.

Are we going to get new trains or are they going under?
If neither is correct then such a company has some explaining to do.

I've always believed that Northern ought to keep there stock in a better state, some of it is truly disgusting.
Surely that's a serious enough issue to stop a unit from being in service?

It is indeed and all are in a bad state.
If you are ever down in the direction of the mid cheshire take a ride and you will see what I mean.

I don't think so, I've been on Pacers with dodgy doors that won't open, or won't open fully, on several occasions. The guard just makes a point of using that door to unlock.

I remember one occasion the guard got so fed up with the door he wasn't opening it manually in the traditional sence, he was more or less just punching and kicking it open.

SFE, which First service do you use and what type of train is it?

I get on the Manchester airport trains from Stockport which are usually class 170s or 185s. The brand is First transpennine express.

Although Wilmslow is closer to the Lindow area I like to take a morning walk through Styal village which is pleasant.
If First still operated into Wilmslow I would go from Stockport to wilmsow as it is much easier in bad weather.
The EMUs now owned by Northern are in pretty good shape but only because they are still fairly new and have not been in that companies ownership that long.
Give it a few years and they will be covered in dirt with birdsnests and you will have to push.

Ah, in that case perhaps the cleaner external condition of the "First" trains is a result of the regular pampering they get by Siemens at their dedicated Ardwick depot.
If they're lucky poor old "Northerns" scrapheaps might just get a bucket of dirty water thrown over them when they pass through Newton Heath:)

If I am honest over the past week they look like they go through a pond!

In fact the mid cheshire has always had the runt of the litter when it comes to trains.
About 10 years ago my grandfather said "its the line where trains go to die"
Its true now and to a much worse extent.
I like the view out of the window on this line as it is very scenic but now you can't actually see the view.

Its perhaps a coincidencethat before the 1880's and Sir John Aspinall the Lancashire and Yorkshire railway had a very similar reputation and then they became one of the greatest.
I pray for the day.
A while back there was talk of a second line to Manchester airport between Hale and Ashley and would have been a nice trip.
If Metrolink fails in its plans to go to the Airport then this might be revived.

A few years ago i went on Northen Rail and they were very dirty back then.
Its a shame because they have a nice colour scheme.

ccmmick

They smell like one too.

I must say that you're right, a lot of the Northern stock has quite a pong to it. All of there 144s have the same musty smell to them, as do some of the 142s. I'd much rather have a nice TPE 185!

Its a shame that Northern are trying to hang on to their pacer classes and the 142 in particular simply cannot cope with passenger numbers on the modern railway.
They were designed at a time when passenger numbers were at their lowest and expected to keep on falling.
Now the railways are the busiest ever and we need something else.
I actually secretly quite like pacers as they have that colonel Stephens feel about them but there is a point when it gets too bad.
Earlier in the year I saw one still in merseyrail livery but the corner of the cab had been smashed in probably by an accident at the yard but it was still in service with a bit of masking tape holding the light in place. Surely that is beyond unsafe and should never have been shoved into service.
Their 158s often have bits falling off as those in other companies are refurbished.

If in hell there were a railway then it would be operated by Northern.
They should use that I think.

Just thinking about the Middlewich branch from Northwich.
This is a journey I would like to do if passenger services are reinstated but I do wish they would hurry up about it.
Mid cheshire rail users association want the line open to passengers. To be honset here I think they wouild do a grand job running it themselves as they have some good ideas and are actually interested in the passenger.
They could by a pacer off Northern for about 20p and do it up. Thats all they are worth by now.

Actually SFE, Northern lease their rolling stock, the Pacers are leased from Angel Trains according to my book. (Do I remember Angel Trains being taken over by a bank or somesuch?)

Regards, 62440.

Are those the ex First pacers?
I am pretty sure that the ex arriva ones are owned by Northern as Arriva managed to refurbish them with their won fittings.
So did Merseyrail and to a greater extent.

All of the class 142 vehicles are listed in the Platform 5 combined editions 2008, 2002, & 1998 as being owned by Angel Trains. I don't know of any (passenger) train operating company who actually "own" the rolling stock they use, all of it went to the three leasing companies at privatisation. All the class 143 and 144's are owned by Porterbrook except for about 6 or seven which are owned by various local authorities in South Wales. I don't know the lease details but presumably there would be scope for the operators to do "Re-furbs" to their own spec written into the agreements.

Regards, 62440.

Yes since Northern took over there haven't been any 158s or 175s on peak time services, unlike under First North Western.

In one of the Network Rail documents that's been produced it mentions it as a possible future proposal for between 2014 and 2019: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%...st%20Urban.pdf

Yes a feasability report in the reopening of that line found the benefit:cost ratio is 5:1. Also if GMPTE looked at reopening Cheadle and Baguley stations then it should be feasible to run a Crewe-Altrincham-Manchester service, giving Northwich, Knutsford and Hale a half-hourly Manchester service.

Have to agree with this, travelled back from Gainsborough on Sunday, the pacer was in a disgraceful condition lights not working, the train was 40 minutes late, no information point on the station had to use my mobile to find out the delay, station was infested with rats running around on the platforms.

I shall be seeking compensation from Northern as the dalay caused me to miss a connecting train at Lincoln and I was over two hours late eventually. More people ought to use the complaint system,it looks bad on their performance data and they can be bought to book by the regulator - we put up with too much.

The only delay clause Northern have in their passengers charter is:

If a delay to a Northern service adds an hour or more to your journey, we will offer you National Rail travel vouchers to the value of at least 50% of the fare you paid for that journey. The vouchers are available for use on Northern and other train operators' services.

Northern have got a snotty generic email they send you if you complain about delays of under an hour occuring on a regular basis.

Mots Northern stations outside of PTE areas are in a very shabby state. Shouldn't technically a rat infested station be closed until the problem is addressed or is that only after environmental health officers visit?

Hi thanks I used to work for the Rail Passenger's Council on the Southern Committee so I am still quite well up the complaints procedure. Because of the delay they caused my journey to be two hours late, I was unable to get the connecting service to Lincoln and had to wait for nearly 90 minutes on a rat infested dirty station . I will expect compensation and if not I will go through the appeal process!!

Its a shame about Northern. Although they have bad trains until the bad weather struck punctuality was mostly of a good standard.
Until october/ november when it began to go haywire trains on the mid cheshire had an excellent record. The latest train was 6 minutes late.

This weekend I have noticed a significant difference to the allocations for the line. There is now only 1 142 on the mid cheshire and a few 150s have been replaced with 156s.

There is much happening here now. I am partly happy that the 142s have all but been withdrawn but I might well miss them. They were good for sight seeing with those massive windows. With one left which is due to be withdrawn I must say that I am not pleased with 150s being used at all on the line. Fine for urban stuff but not for rural journeys. There are now 6 156s I think on the mid cheshire including the named 156420 "La'l Ratty ravenglass and eskdale railway" On the whole good job Northern but just clean your flippin trains please!

On pondering could the 150s be replaced with the odd 158? In the mornings the 150s are not even coming lose to coping.

Are you saying the line is to become Sprinter only or that Saturday is to become Sprinter only? We do have one of the busiest Northern lines out of Piccadilly on Saturdays and during school holidays so using a larger unit is an advantage. The 142s are certainly not being withdrawn from service as Northern don't have anything to replace them with.

We currently get a unit switch in the early evening on weekdays to get the pair of Sprinters that have run the 15:07 Chester to Manchester service on to the Buxton line and we get a 142 that arrives from Newton Heath to run the 17:09 Manchester to Chester service.

That's a complicated issue. When Northern took over they sent all the First North Western 158s to Leeds and sent all the Arriva Trains Northern 150s to Manchester. No Northern 158s currently go to Piccadilly so crews haven't retained traction knowledge of 158s. However, Victoria drivers do sign 158s and the Manchester to Chester via Altrincham route and reguarly move the stock for the line between Chester and Manchester (via Warrington) at the beginning and end of the day but Victoria guards don't sign our line so despite the fact Victoria drivers sign the line 158s can't currently appear on the line.

On the buxton line then they may be used for an increased service. Any timetable doublings?
Today I managed with a bit of waiting to get on the last 142 I have seen on the line.
The number is 142005.
There has been a 158 in recent years on the mid cheshire.
There are often a lot of diverted services and I did see a 158 (not in northern livery) heading to chester. I saw this at Altrincham.
They would cope better I am sure of that. Where driver experience is concerned the 156s is very similar. This class is used currently on this line.
If the oldham loop has lost 142s and the mid cheshire has got one (from what was many more)- where are they going?

Also the trans pennine services used to be 158s and that was only a year or two ago.
This was frowm may platforms at Pic.
The sprintr family are all very simialar. The only exception is the 159 which is southern region only and the trains are much longer so there is a difference in performance.
The 156 and 158 are almost identical when it comes to size (two car sets of course) and the engines are very similar too.
If driver training in this country is of any good standard then it should be like riding a bike. Forgetting is not an option (although this would explain a lot of late trains) and if such an occurance was to come around then someone is not doing their job properly.:)


PS: I can't find any record of angel trains owning 143s/144s. Do the train operators won them is is there another hire company?:)

S.F.E., If you refer to my last post on this subject I did explain that most of the 143's & 144's are owned by the Porterbrook Leasing Co.

There are 3 Leasing Co's.

Angel Train contracts.

Porterbrook Leasing Company Ltd.

Forward Trust Rail. (Originally Eversholt Leasing)

Most (Not All) of the ex-B.R. Locos and Rolling Stock went to these three companies at privatisation.

Hope this helps.

Regards, 62440.

I really don't know what you mean by the 'last' as there's at least two Pacer diagrams assuming no Sprinters get swapped for 142s. Yesterday (Tuesday) a Sprinter diagram was indeed run by a 142 (the 15:17 Manchester to Chester and the 17:07 Chester to Manchester is usually a 150 but was a 142 yesterday.) In addition some of the usual 142 weekday workings remained as 142 yesterday such as the 08:07 Chester to Manchester service. As I've said before we get an extra 142 on the Mid-Cheshire line in the evenings when the pair of 150s used on the 15:07 Chester to Manchester service are swapped for a 142 at Piccadilly so that the 17:09 Manchester to Chester service is a 142 that's been in the depot for most of the day.

Most likely an Arriva Trains Wales Manchester to Llandudno service during engineering works on the Warrington line, although only one or two Llandudno services are usually 158s as most are 175s - the type of train we used to get on the 065x Chester to Manchester via Altrincham service when it continued through to Oxford Rd and back to Chester via Warrington.

156s are still based at Manchester, 158s are not so they just don't bother having Piccadilly drivers learn them. Leeds based 158s do run Manchester Victoria - Leeds and York-Blackpool services so Victoria drivers still do sign them.

I think that's a common misconception that all Oldham services were 142s. They were actually a mix of 142s, 150s, 153s and 156s. In FNW days they were mostly all 142s but Northern put more Sprinters on them. The units released from the Oldham Loop are being used to strengthen Victoria-Rochdale-Leeds services.

That's assuming all the drivers learnt 158s in the first place. It's quite a while since 158s were transferred to Leeds so any new drivers won't have learnt them in the first place. It sounds stupid but a driver or conductor have to have training as to where things like the fire extinugisher, first aid boxes and all the doors are and can't sign a unit until they've been tested on it.

The 159s with South West Trains are 3 car 158s that have been renumbered. In fact the 159s that are with South West Trains are the old 3 car ones that TransPennine Express had until 2006. No Sprinters have more than 3 carriages unless two units are joined together.

northern trains
 

most units working in yorks are clean internaly and externaly but they sevviced at neville hill not newton heath whos trains were always dirty even 30 years ago

As to the fire extingusihers that is unclear. They may have to be trained but they are designed for the use of the ordinary passenger. Where exactly is the training facility?

Not all 159s are just renumbered.
The 158s and 159s were built at the same place in Derby but only the original 22 were rebuilt from 158s. A later 8 I think were original 159s.

Again I must say that training needs to improve if it is done on one class only. If you are in charge of a trainload of people you need to be compitent so I suggest something here needs to change. I did not say all of the oldham loop trains were 142s I did say however that there was a lot of them. I knew there were some 150s and at least one 156 but the 153 is news to me.

Finally on the mid cheshire there is one 142 running and no more. If there is a second it may well be in for servicing but I have only collected one number. 142005.

My point is that Northern cannot go on like this. It is also true that none of its services serve food on the train not even the longer distance ones.
Thanks for the additional info people.

So am I correct in saying the reason we're disagreeing is because you went train spotting for a few hours and only saw one 142? If that is the case you need to be aware of unit swaps and maybe consider doing train spotting later on in the day and you'll see more than one 142.

As I've pointed out the 16:36 arrival at Piccadilly from Chester is a pair of 150s, once at Manchester the next destination for those units is Buxton and a 142 arriving from Newton Heath comes in to service for the 17:09 Chester via Altrincham. At the time this train leaves Manchester another 142 is between Lostock Gralam and Northwich heading towards Chester, with the 16:58 Stockport to Chester train inbetween the two being a Sprinter. A further 142 is also between Navigation and Stockport at this time heading for Manchester, meaning at 17:09 we have 3 142s running Manchester to Chester via Altrincham services.

Another place where there's a unit swap is the 09:17 Manchester to Chester service is a 150 attached to an out-of-use 142. On arrival at Chester the trains are seperated and the 142 forms the 11:07 Chester to Manchester service with the 150 remaining at Chester to be picked up later by another crew for the afternoon Helsby-Ellesemere Port service.

Yes. However, the only route that Northern currently have that used to have a trolley service on it under the previous operators is York to Blackpool

I train spot everyday when not working and during lunch hours and when I get home so it is an every day thing.
I have several hours from nearly everyday since august when I decided to study the workings exactly on my home line.
Are you classing the section between Manchester pic and stockport as part of the mid cheshire?
Officially the line begins at Stockport and goes through to Chester. This is what is called the Mid cheshire as we know it today. The bit from Stockport to Manchester is not.

So services to buxton to not traverse Mid cheshire metals at any point as from stockport it is WCML.

The proper mid cheshire I think starts from Skelton junction and finnishes at Mickle trafford. This is the section I am talking about.

Hope this clears it up.

Can I point out that the class 159's were built as class 158's but were converted before entering service by having the drivers cab etc removed from the centre vehicle and seating areas installed along with bodywork changes to suit. This is why they are treated as a separate class and not as a class 158 sub class.

Regards, 62440.

I said:

at 17:09 we have 3 142s running Manchester to Chester via Altrincham services

I didn't say there are 3 different 142s on the Mid-Cheshire line at the same time but they are obviously different 142s that all run on the Mid-Cheshire line within the same hour in the evening as one 142 can't be in three places at once.

The reason I'm doubting you see the late afternoon and evening trains is you specifically mentioned there was only one 142 on Tuesday, when in fact a Sprinter diagram was run by a 142 (The 15:17 Manchester to Chester and the 17:07 Chester to Manchester) so we possibly had 4 different 142s on the line on Tuesday afternoon/evening. (I didn't see the 17:09 Manchester to Chester service that afternoon so that may have been substituted with a Sprinter meaning we had the usual 3 142s and not an extra one.)

I don't think there were any 153s booked on the Oldham Loop but they could appear if there was a unit swap.

Hold on you said there were 153s in an earlier post did you not?
It is not just me for a start. I often talk to crews of the trains and the staff at Hale and Altrincham to ask how things are going.
I have a freind in Ashley and one in Mobberly who are retired and spend everyday down at those stations.When we meet in the pub I compare notes with these two.
If you talk to enough people you find out what you need.

Can you give the number of this other 142 you speak of?
I have not only done this on tuesday it is since last thursday that only one could be seen. I do like the class but a bit bumpy and far far too crowded for what is a main line.

I would class an occasional 153 running an Oldham Loop service as them running on the line even if they didn't run on the line every day.

Booked traction is not what always turns up. I caught the 08:5x service from Knutsford to Greenbank (at the time when it originated at St-Annes-on-Sea). The service from St-Annes was booked for 2x156s (and was sponsored by GMPTE to be such). About once a week the service from St-Annes was 156+150 and on some occasions was a single 156 and one day I remember a 156+142 and another day I remember a 150+142+142. Now imagine we didn't usually have any 142s on the line at the time - that would mean 142s did not run on the line even if they turned up for that one service occasionally?

It wouldn't be the same 142 every day, as I already said I didn't see the service on Tuesday and it'd be difficult to get a train number when it's dark!

If you don't believe me then go to Piccadilly one day at around 16:30 you'll see the arrival of the 15:07 service from Chester (a pair of 150s) goes to Buxton around 10-15 minutes after arriving at Piccadilly. You'll also see 3 142s arriving in multiple at Piccadilly, which is new stock from Newton Heath, the front one is then detached from the rear two and the front one forms the 17:09 Chester service and the rear two form the 17:23 Hazel Grove service.

Well most units on the line are there everyday with a few ecxeptions. It cannot be avoided that the 142s are being phased out on services on the mid cheshire (Stockport- Chester via Altrincham). They may well be used on the line to Buxton but this service and the one to Hazle grove are different lines altogether. The line to Buxton uses platform 0 at Stockport and trains to Chester via Altrincham use the oppostite side of the station.