Goods Train Formation
 

Hi, can someone please clarify for me,on the NVR on Sunday 12th September
a demonstration unfitted goods train ran with a single brake van mustered next to the loco. I note that there is already a clip of this on u tube.Is this acceptable practice? I would have thought that there was potential for a mishap if a wagon, for whatever reason, broke away and a passenger train, which in this instance was already delayed, followed on. I grew up in the steam era and cannot ever remember seeing such an incident, sometimes if there was more than one brake van one would indeed be next to the loco but there was still always the one at the end of the train. I am of course just a casual observer with a keen interest in railways so just because I never saw it does not meen it never happened, so please enlighten me, acceptable or not?

The problem with trainspotters is they take risks where they should not.
I do not know the road at this location, but you have a BV on a train to stop the trucks rolling backwards should a coupling break, or if a train divides.
There has been a lot of this on the mainline, where contractors vehicles have run away down Shap, and fatalities ensue.
If I had run a loose coupled train without a BV in the rear, with me init, I would have been sacked straight away with no excuses.
This sounds to me like people playing at trains, without the knowledge to know what they are doing.
Report if to the HMI and see what happens.

I don't know which rule book the Nene Valley Railway work to but the British Railways 1950 one says the following in rule 153.

(a) A freight train must not be run on any running line beyond station limits without a brake van in rear, unless authorised by the Operating Superintendent.
(b) Where a freight train is authorised to run without a brake van in rear, a brake van, or other suitable vehicle, for the use of the man in charge of such train, must be attached-when it can be conveniently done- as near to the rear of the train as practicable. Where no such vehicle is available the man may ride on the engine. A tail signal must be carried on the last vehicle.

It would seem that if authorised by the Nene Valley's Operating Superintendent it would have been perfectly acceptable. As I said above , I don't know which rule book the Nene Valley adopted back in, was it 1976? when they opened?

I don't have a gradient profile for the Nene Valley Railway, but would estimate the ruling gradient to be approx 1 in 1500, it's damn near flat all the way.

Regards, 62440.

Does the NVR run under a Light Railway Order? Possibly it would have its own rule book though I would have thought it would have to have approved by the HMRI

Well there you go....says it all about people playing at being railwaymen !!

If they want to do it they should at least do it right, I hope someone has put them right now !

I wish I could be a manager on one of these toy railways I really do.

I am on a roll now, I had better go before I get a Form 1 from Admin.

48111

What are the rules about propelling on the big railway?

Was the train fully fitted? If it was then there is probably no need for a brake van to be at the rear of the train, this is only necessary of some or all of the train is unfitted. In the case of partial fitted trains the fitted wagons would be marshalled next to the engine with the unfitted portion in the rear.

goods train formation
 

No, as stated in my original question ,it was unfitted.

Ah right, my apologies, should really get on with work rather than skim reading here!

When you are propelling a train from the main line into a siding or vica versa, you must reach a clear understanding with the driver of the train, the signal box which controls that section of track.
The propelling movement must be controled by the PIC of the move, from the leading suitable vehicle, or a place of safety on the ground, or the PIC must proceed the movement on foot.
To control such a movement, the PIC must control the propelling movement with hand signals or back to back radios.
Normally I have used radios for these movements.
If radios are used, or hand signals to control the movement, the driver should stop the movement if he loses sight of the PIC or the radio transmission stops.
By stop I mean STOP right away.
When using radios, the PIC will maintain a constant transmission to the driver. This can be a voice transmission or a constant bleep on the radio.
The speed of these movements should be 5 mph and no faster
I have spent nearly eveyday of my working week propelling 65SLU trains into siding in and around Leeds.
Managers have radios that they can monitor what you are saying on the radios.
Strict Safety Critical Communications must be used at all times.

Umm thanks. I only asked because many heritage lines dont have runaround loops and therefore have to propel in one direction.

Thats a very comprehensive and Proffesional account HM181.
Kris

This is my job, and I have been doing it for very long time.
If you rush mistakes are made, and you have to answer if you make a mess of what you do.
Therefore I do not rush and stick to a tried and tested method of work. The more you rush the more likley you are to have a problem.

A lot of Logic there HM181 !
Perhaps a lot of people overlook the importance the Shunter/ Ground Guy has in these type of operations.
I suppose really the Guy on the ground is actually Driving the Train with the Driver basically pressing a stop and a go button to his orders so to speak ! :)
Kris

On the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway we worked to the same rules outlined by HM181.

The works train is regularly propelled and the Guards Van is the leading vehicle The Guard must be passed out as a goods guard and know how to use the brake to help to control the train.

We also propell on loco hauled passenger services in which case the Guard has a clear view of the track ahead and is sitting next to the Vacuum brake ready to apply if necessary. Currently the lead vehicle is always either the LMS Inspection Salloon or a DMU trailer car.

Wakey spotter you are absolutly right: The driver may be at the controls but can do nothing until instruted to move by the guard/shunter.

Best wishes,

John H-T.

many thanks for your info which does clarify,however ,next to the loco can in no way be described as close to rear of train as possible and as a preserved railway surely the demonstration should have been showing the norm rather than the exception, or am I just being pedantic ? after all, many visitors to preserved railways never ever saw an unfitted goods train.

I lived in loose coupled trains for 10 years everyday, on all types of trains and on a mirade of routes.
I went to Doncaster that many times, I could sit in the BV and know where I was from the outside smells, by the noise of the wheels on the track, and the flicks of the BV when it hit a wet patch on the track.

Fully fitted (Class C) freight trains had to have a brake van, although wagons could be coupled in rear of it, as frequently happened on up Grimsby fish trains. Similarly fully fitted trains could be worked in reverse formation provided there were no more than (i believe) 20 vehicles between brake van and tail light. Some vans had no lamp bracket and I have seen tail lights swinging from couplings.

I saw similar on the Bluebell in August 2005 - see attached photo. The trains to remove the spoil from Imberhorne tip were marshalled with the brake van at the south end of the formation so that when the train was propelled towards the tip face from Kingscote, the wagons were the closest vehicles to the tip face. I didn't see the propelling move, so I don't know how this was controlled. However, to avoid losing time shunting, the train remained in this formation when running back to Horsted Keynes, meaning the brake van was right behind the loco, with the six open wagons trailing behind. I thought this was strange, so I asked a member of the crew at Horsted, who told me that it was ok as the train was fully fitted.

Tony

It's a small world !!!

From the first image of the train passing West Hoathly, I believe that is me pictured in the brake van. From Horsted Keynes to Kingscote the train was hauled by the engine. At Kingscote the engine runs round, to enable the formation to be propelled up the northern extension to the railhead. The northern extension is a siding under an Engineers' Possession. The return journey back to Horsted Keynes is hauled by the engine as per your photo.

You will find several pictures of various engineering trains in my collection here >>> http://gallery74781.fotopic.net/c437580_1.html

Chris (Passenger/Goods Guard)

Small world indeed! The date was Thursday 18th August 2005 if that helps. Is the remaining tip material all to be removed via East Grinstead or will we see a return to these workings via Kingscote?
Some really good & interesting shots on the fotopic site.

Tony

Additional track to extend the running line up to the face of the waste tip, along with a temporary siding to aid loading, are being laid as I write this. It is unlikely that there will be any trains transporting waste material northwards via East Grinstead to an in-fill waste site in Bedfordshire until March/April 2011 at the earliest. How many weeks the next run of waste removal will comprise depends upon how much of the outstanding £2½ million needed to clear the waste tip has been raised by that time.

At the southern end, there is no decision at this time as to when the next spoil trains will convey further inert spoil down to Horsted Keynes.

Chris

I was wondering why the trackbed was being reballasted at double track width.
Then I read the comments.
http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bl...whats_new.html

Which direction will the siding face?

As far as I'm aware the siding will be such so as to allow a formation of wagons to be shunted towards the waste tip so the vehicles can loaded with waste material.

Chris

Click on the thumbnail below to view the siding point being laid. The camera is looking south towards Hill Place Farm Bridge and the waste tip beyond.

Chris