Is deisel dying?
 

First electric trains are introduced.
Then deisel locomotive hauled trains are cut.
Then the great western main line anounces electrification.
Eco trains are starting service.
Is this the beginning of the end?

I doubt it somehow. Even after this next wave of electrification there'll be a lot of places left without it. So diesel will be with us for a good while yet I reckon.

Diesels are still the main motive power here, mainly because only part of the North Island main line is electrified.

We actually had electrification taken down in the South Island.

I don't think its the end, but it surely should be, dirty, smelly non-descript bohemoths ;)

I have an idea for a replacement, but I'll post it in another topic because it probably doesnt belong here

Of couse it wont be straight away but similar things were said about steam.

I think diesel powered trains will still be in regular use for a long time yet. The lines for which electrification was recently announced are all either main lines or alternatives to existing electrified lines.

And even after this there are still plenty of them to go, before anyone considers moving onto the branch lines, and they will all be done before anyone considers electrification of the remote, underused and underfunded corners of the network.

And then after that you've got all the goods-only lines, yards and sidings, which probably won't be done until Peak Oil is a thing of the far distant past - probably some time towards the end of the 22nd century I would guess - if they are ever done at all.

We still have coal and we certainly are not short of water.
This has all been seen before sadly.

Not too much water here in the Eastern Counties unless you include the North Sea. No coal and most of the Peat goes away in Peat Storms. So perhaps we should open a Human Powered Railway.
John (G)

Ah well there are plenty of coal mines around which were closed before time.

nooooooooooooooooo i hope diesel is not vanishing, we need SOME smelly trains!!!!!!!!!!!

Deep breaths............

Squeaky88

I think you can rest assured that diesel locomotive power will be around for some considerable time, at least on steam heritage railways. There always be a need to run engineering trains, and there are many advantages in hiring in mechanical plant such as JCB diggers, dumper trucks and diesel locos to do the work. It will save wear and tear on our prestigious steam engines. :)


The first coal trains were hauled by children and pit ponies. I like your idea. It will create a source of employment for many school leavers. :rolleyes:

Chris

Ah well I dont think It will ever die out completely.
Steam didn't and is actually making a comeback. Mabe the same will happen with deisel.
I do agree that It won't happen for at least 30 years though.
If you are a diesel enthusiast then why not go down to your local depot or shed. There is usually disposing sidings with a few 31's, 47's and 37's in there which could well be bought for scrap prices. If people do this like what happend a barry scrapyard, deisel will not die.

Diesel was meant to be a relitively short stopgap between steam and electric !

Is electrification the answer anyway ?

Extra infrastructure to maintain (gantries and wires)

It is not a clean technology (power stations use all sorts of polluting fuels)

Risk of power cuts /industrial action/ security issues

Weather problems particularly high winds.

I like a railway where the power is held within the engine not from an outside source

I would like to think it is possible to have a cleaner, efficient, cost effective railway which isn't electric.

Modern diesel engine technology should make "dirty diesels" a thing of the past.

I agree completely about self propelled locomotives !:D

Electrical power supplies can fail, maybe not on a nationwide scale, but the risk is enough to warrant the provision of a fair number of 'self-propelled' locos to come to the rescue in the event of such events (he says confidently!)
If the wires come down during a storm, for instance, then EMUs would have to be moved from A to B to allow for repairs to be made; obviously electric locos wouldn't be able to perform such tasks, so diesels will have to be retained for such occasions.
How long before a nuclear or solar powered train threatens the existence of electrics, I wonder.....

"The 14:20 Solarsupervoyager to London Euston is running 6 minutes late due to overcast conditions in the Wigan area":)

"The 14:20 Solarsupervoyager to London Euston is running 6 minutes late due to overcast conditions in the Wigan area"
Will any tunnels need the bores in the direction of travel modified so they run 'downhill'? No light no power and apart from tunnels daylight use only.
John (G)

Rather than power the train directly we could have the solar panels charge up a battery which the train runs on. We could then have tunnel use and limited night use. :)

I like steam locos and even have a soft spot for some diesels but as far as modern day traction goes it is hard to better electrics.
Electric trains, with fewer moving parts, are much cheaper to maintain than diesels, which more than compensates for any costs involved in servicing the overhead line equipment.
Although it’s true that most power generation at present does cause pollution this can’t be used as an argument against electrification because the technology exists to rectify the matter and most governments are actively working towards that end. Even in today’s situation diesel fuel isn’t any better as it still has to be produced and oil refineries are amongst the biggest polluters on the planet.
It has also been suggested that further railway electrification shouldn’t take place because of the risk of power cuts and industrial action. Why? Using the same logic we would have to go back to gas lighting and candles just in case.
As for potential weather problems it has to be said that many countries with far harsher climates than ours cope perfectly well with electrified railways. Overhead line equipment when properly installed is pretty robust.
The preference for a loco to carry its own power supply no doubt stems from a liking for steam and diesels but it’s this feature that helps make these locos so inefficient. Because it doesn’t have to carry round a steam boiler or diesel engine and tons/gallons of fuel an electric loco has a much better power to weight ratio. A Class 91 electric has more than twice the power of a Class 67 diesel yet weighs 6 tonnes less.

it seems to me that every source of power has its faults. Looks like clockwork will have to developed?
Richard

I totally agree with all you say John. The foreseeable future is electric with diesel filling in the gaps. Any return to steam as a day to day motive power is pure fantasy. The only proven motive power for high speed lines is electric. I do not see steam locomotives that can routinely run reliably at speeds 50% above current world record being developed, when there is doubt about financing the high speed routes using proven motive power!

We have our heritage steam which is great, but for day to day use forget it.

Swiss Railways have managed fine with electric for decades!

Best wishes,

John H-T.

Why didn't we keep the system employed by ER on the Woodhead route.
The loco put power back into the system as it coasted downhill.:)

We don't have overcast conditions in the Wigan area, due to our sunny dispositions.

Mickey (on behalf of the natives of the centre of the known universe).:D :D :D

It seems that you have competition from a small town not far from Sydney for that title, well in Australian Terms!

Best wishes,

John H-T.

I do feel that electric is too expensive.
There are many lines that have had their wires taken down beacuase of this.
The fact is that electric is a massive power waster.
Whenever there is no trains on a section, power is wasted.
Because electricity can only be carried so far, there is many circuits.
To make it work, power needs to be switched off when a train is not on the section. This can be done by automatic switches at junctions.
There is a problem however, the wires are quite unsightly.
You may not think it such a problem, but our heritage is at stake when it comes to the great western line.

Can you name some of these many lines please?

Where does this power go when there are no trains running?

And our future is at stake if we don't modernise the railways.

Its all around the network.
You just have to look closely to see the signs of this.
I think the mid cheshire line was at one point as there is a few old wire poles along the line. Lokk at altrincham for example.
I do have a book on this somewhere.

Exactly, where is the power going? It certanly is not being used as it is separate from other circuits.

The whole point about the future is that it hasn't happened yet. We can shape and mould it as long as we are imaginative. Imagination can lead us any where, so we could find a way to save the old as well as making new.
The human race is a clever race (most of it) and because of this look at what has been achieved.
Here is something to think about. We are all made of stardust. Stars give life.
We are all the same thing except in different forms, so maybe we should think as one and look forward to the future. The future can be as we like it if we get up and do something towards that.

I finish with this, If we can save out heritage, it will teach future gererations and prevent us from forgetting our past.
The dream of Tornado was about bringing the past to the future.
To remember who we are, we need to remember who we were and live the past.
Lessons from the past can shape the future. Who knows, I we want it there could be steam around for a very long time and If we want it, we can find a way forward that helps us all and so creates a brighter future.

I can believe that we are all made of stardust but I don't believe the Mid Cheshire line was ever electrified beyond Altrincham.

Heritage Lines seem to be doing OK at the present.

We do however need to look forward to produce a viable transport system for this country for the future. The main compeditor with Rail is Air Transport. In conservation terms we just cannot continue to use Air Transport for shorthaul. It is too damaging to the environment. The only way to provide an alternative to air is to build High Speed Rail links powered by electricity.

Try applying some logic to your rhetoric Steam for ever!

Best wishes,

John H-T.

Has electrification of the WCML and ECML acheived any significant improvements ?

The diesel HST provided a quality service on the existing network

The trend is to buy into this electrification ideology, but is it really worth it.

Cheaper fares are more important than so called state of the art electric trains.

As you are obviously a fan of diesels and strongly dislike electrics I think I am wasting my time but here goes:-

Even allowing for Network Rails upgrading fiasco the train service on the WCML is faster, more frequent and cleaner than it was in steam/diesel days. I don't have much experience of the ECML but I would imagine that the same applies.
Agreed, but now they are coming to the end of their working lives and the opportunity is there to replace them with something better........Lighter, cleaner, more efficient electrics!!
Most major countries in Europe seem to think so. If you want a frequent, fast, efficient service it's the best option. As lines become more congested the superior acceleration of electric trains is the best way to increase line capacity.
I agree that cheaper fares are important but until we change the way our railways are run you are unlikely to get them even if we were to stick with diesel traction. I see that FGW have increased many of their fares today despite being one of the biggest users of HST's.

Really It is not the railways that need worrying about.
Trains can carry many many more people and so when you do the sums, you are being cleaner than road transport anyway you put it, even with steam.
You are right about the mid cheshire line, I have read up on it some more.

There is no doubt that electrification of both the WCML and ECML have made a vast improvement to services on both routes and all other routes that have been electrified. So much so that we talk about "The Sparks Effect!" Increased passenger numbers always seem to follow recent electrification of routes.

The HST must rank as one of the Great Railway Classics. They are great to ride in and they have served the railways well but they are now over 25 years old and have covered 10's of millions of miles. They cannot go on forever, although I do hope one is preserved for use on the mainline!

You have to replace equipment, preferably before it passes it's sell by date!!

Best wishes,

John H-T.

Trains and Railways are part of the whole. You cannot separate them.

The next Golden Age of the Railways should be ahead of us but the present network cannot cope with projected passenger numbers. Capacity needs to be increased. Steam cannot provide the service on a railway in the 21st century. Think of the leap in technology required to develope steam multi units that can run reliably at 200mph. That is what is needed for the future!

Best wishes,

John H-T.

To reply to Swisstrains; i am a diesel loco fan, but have an interest in all railway traction.

You are not wasting your time your point has been made well. I agree that society equates progress with faster journey times and that electric trains are best placed to achieve this.

But as a 'rail enthusiast' and 'a grumpy old man' progress has to be seroiusly questioned.

- The simplistic character of the railway is lost with unsightly wires and gantries.

- You get newer trains with newer technology, but the pollution is hidden. Do we really get cleaner trains ?

- I find the idea of very fast electric trains scary. TGV's or Bullet Trains in the densely populated UK ? (perhaps i'm being irrational here )

- I just feel more comfortable that the motive power on a train should be produced on board (Again more simplistic, with less issues concerning the ever complicated politics of generating electricity)

- Talking of politics we have had patchy electrification giving some cities a so called economic advantage and status over others. Although i'm sure (diesel Sheffield) manages just as well as (electrified Leeds).

We as a society are obsessed with squeezing more and more out of life, i don't think this is necessarilly a good thing.



Railways in the UK should rebel against progress. Which company would you choose if travelling from Birmirmingham to London at 9.00am ?


Scenario 1 Chiltern trains DMU 165 2x 350 hp Perkins engines, top speed 75mph, journey time 2h 18m, return ticket £26.90.

or

scenario 2 Virgin trains EMU 390 Pedolino 5.1 MW output, top speed 140mph (restricted to 125mph), journey time 1h 24m, return ticket £61.00.


AS HUMAN BEINGS WE DON"T NEED FASTER TRAINS, BUT AS PAWNS IN THE GLOBAL ECONOMY WE SURELY DO !

It would very much depend on what I was going to do in London when I got there. If I was going for a meeting I would go Virgin. I probably would n't be paying for the ticket anyway!

However if it was for a day out I would probably go Chiltern!

To take high speed trains to the current limit: Maglev. I would rather travel from Shanhai to the Airport in 15 minutes at speeds up to 400kph than spend 2 hours in Shanghai Traffic. Have tried both!

Best wishes,

John H-T.

It's true that faster journey times can result from electrification but there are far more benefits than just being able to speed from A to B in the shortest possible time. I see that you have chosen to ignore such things as increased line capacity, the potential for reduced pollution and lower operating costs.

I'm afraid I can't suggest any cure for your paranoia.

There is also a third scenario?

London Midland Trains EMU 350, top speed 100mph, journey time 2h 25m, return ticket £24.

Now THAT's the one I would choose.(But not on a Sunday:))

The thing is steam has been developed since, but thats a different subject.
I will come back to that at another time.
The fact is that the roads that replaced the railways had a maximum traffic allowence much less than the railways, even though it was clear that the population was becoming astronomical.
Why oh why then did they not realise this.
In may cases now we need both.
Some examples are the waverly route and some parts of the Great central.

You have now totally lost me Steam for Ever. I have lost whatever thread of logic there might have been in your argument.

Best wishes,

John H-T.

Squeaky88, do you realise that diesel fumes are carcinogenic?