Yellow Ends...
 

Another set of amateurish questions from me, but I'm quite curious on a few points. (no pun intended...)

1) Is it a legal requirement for trains to have yellow cab ends, or is it simply a railway regulation, or is it just something done out of choice and not nessasarily required?

2) Is there a minimum area of yellow permitted? Cause I've seen more and more liveries in the colourful age we live in with less and less yellow on the front ends (which I find strange and odd to see personally).

3) Is the shade of yellow always the same, since looking at my model trains right now they all seem a different shade, and I was watching Trainspotting on Discovery Channel once which implied they were always given a specific pigment. I think it might be my trains that are "wrong" in which case which pigment is "right" so I can correct them? :p

Thank you for any replies / reading my silly thread. :D

Hello DBT,
All your questions are answered in this document:-
http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/docushare/dsweb/Get/Rail-41171/rt2483.pdf

Scroll down to Page 9 section C and you will see that it is a railway regulation and that various shades of yellow are permitted.
The area shall be a minimum forward facing continuous area of yellow surface of 1 m² with a minimum dimension of 0.6 m when viewed, at a large distance, head on from in front of the vehicle. It shall be permissible to divide the yellow surface by elements of an end gangway if necessary. Each section of a divided yellow surface shall have a substantially uninterrupted yellow area not less than 0.4 m², with a minimum dimension of 0.6 m.
Is that clear?:D

Wow, I never knew those visibility requirements existed under Railway Group Standards.

Thanks John :D

Uh, certainly detailed. :p

Thank you for the link.

Suprised they havnt insisted steam engines smokeboxes are painted yellow also. Then what would they call a black 5 then?

Good question DBTC, and interesting answer. 1 sq m is a much smaller than generally used on many locomotives. Come to think of it you almost could paint the smoke box door yellow and comply with the standards :D

Just think of a Maroon Jubilee or Coronation with a great slab of yellow across the smoke box door, or even a Blue or green A4 with a yellow across the front. I feel sick just thinking of it.

I quite agree that the exception for steam should remain since it would look very wrong to see any steam loco with a yellow end. Any type of DMU/EMU/Electric/Desiel loco without a full yellow end seems as wrong to me as a steam loco would in yellow though, personally.

Interestingly though that brings me onto a point about steam locos that are certified to run on the Network Rail network, they are exempt from the yellow ends rule, but this isn't mentioned in the guidelines above?

Is it actually an exception or is it just overlooked in the case of steam?

I wouldn't want to draw this to the attention of anyone who works for the Health and Safety Exec who might want to insisit steam engines also now carry yellow front ends, mind. :p

I think mention of exemption for steam locos and possible other types of historical importance is mentioned on the A1 Tornado site but it is a long read through the list of progress. It is however becoming necessary for all the modern 'electronics' to be fitted including the equivalent of the aircraft 'black box'.
Hope it is not mistaken for a lump of coal.
John (G)

Indeed, and although you probably implied it, it's worth stating that it's ONLY necessary if you want to run your loco on mainline NR metals. It adds considerably to the cost, but then you do get to run at a decent linespeed for a good distance. :D

I expect there's a website somewhere which says what the minmum requirements for 'Classic' traction are. I'd guess that nowadays you need at least;

1/ AWS (Automatic Warning System). The old classic - but still a 'goody'.

2/ TPWS (Train Protection & Warning System). Put briefly, it will apply the Emergency Brake if a train passes a TPWS-equipped Signal at Danger, or approaches a TPWS-equipped Signal at Danger too quickly, or approaches a TPWS-equipped Permanent Speed Restriction too quickly.
(It's worth noting that not all signals have TPWS associated with them, only the ones where a conflicting move will result in a serious collision, so even though we're in the 21st Century one train can still run into the back of another one !!)

3/ OTMR (On-Train Monitor Recorder). The equivalent of a commercial aircraft Flight Data Recorder, it records Speed, Throttle, Brake, AWS Bell/Horn, and whatever else you care to put on it.

4/ I don't know if a Radio is mandatory. Either NRN (National Radio Network) or CSR (Cab Secure Radio) depending on where you are in the country. You can get portable versions of these which are little bigger than a mobile phone, so it doesn't have to be a permanent installation.

5/ Anything else ?

Foggy

Foggy,
The Tornado site does give a list of what they are having to install on a new loco but they have an exemption on the yellow bits. I seem to remember radio is in as is most of what you mentioned butthe old AWS is out.
The story of the creating of this new loco is worth reading if you have an hour or so to spare.
John (G)

Thanks for that John. I think that either the author is mistaken or the description is somewhat misleading. It says....

" By the time Tornado is in service, the new TPWS (Train Protection and Warning System) will be required. This is designed to be a direct replacement for the AWS as fitted to air braked diesel and electric stock...

The way I read this is that it's suggesting that a new TPWS installation replaces AWS. If so then it's misinformed. AWS is still very much a respected Safety System. In fact TPWS is integrated with AWS on modern traction units, and the two are inter-dependant. The AWS cancelling button is used to cancel a TPWS brake demand once the train has come to a stand - The brakes won't release until you've done so.

Under current Rules, if AWS is faulty on a modern train, then the train is restricted to 50 MPH unless a competent person can be found to ride in the cab with the driver. That shows how important AWS is still seen to be. As a driver, AWS is wonderful because it acts to prevent an incident happening - eg, missing a precautionary aspect due to drowsiness or distraction. TPWS only intervenes when you've already messed up !! :(

AFAIAA There are no plans to phase out AWS from the British Railway System at this time.

NB: I'm not saying this as an arsey response, I'm just singing the praises of AWS. It might be old and unsophisticated, but most drivers have been saved alot of embarrassment by it. I love it.

Yes, that's an excellent website. I've bookmarked it and will return there when I've got more time. Thanks for that.

Foggy

TPWS is an add-on to AWS, it replaces AWS in that it incorporates it.

Exactly. A statement that TPWS is a direct replacement for AWS is misleading and wrong.

In the cab we still have the AWS cancelling button and the AWS sunflower. On the track we still have AWS magnets. If TPWS truly replaced the AWS hardware, it would be called TPWS.

We all know it's a lash-up, designed to be a poor man's version of ATP. The proof of this is that when the going gets tough and you neeed a safety system the most, ie: Degraded Working, TPWS has to be switched out because it isn't designed to handle complex situations.

I've lost count of the number of times recently when performing Single Line Working and Temporary Block Working where the TPWS is overridden. And yet the AWS continues to do the job it was designed for.

Hence my comments about AWS not being replaced.

(I've got a feeling that this one could run and run ;))

On the subject of AWS and ATP and TPWS as these are saftey eqiptemnt i have been wondering for some time now about the use of tokens as i belive they are called.

As i use the Ormskirk to Preston Line fairley regular and was wondering what is the token actually used for ie What is its pupose.

Well this is going off at a bit of a tangent to the discussion we were having about AWS/TPWS, but the pupose of a token is usually to give the authority to be on a section of single line. The token equipment is set up so that only one train can be in section at any time. The only way that signals can be cleared to allow the next train into section is by the previous train coming out of the section and its token being returned to the token apparatus, to prove that the line is now clear again and enable the interlocked signals to be cleared.

Although it's a clever arrangement, mistakes can still be made. I always think of the Abermule disaster when I think of tokens. :eek: http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/mid/sites...ule_1921.shtml

Tokens can either be physical lumps of metal which are passed to the driver at the beginning of the section and 'surrendered' once the train comes out of section, or they can be virtual as in the the case of Radio Electronic Token Block (RETB) whereby a token is passed to and from the train electronically.

(I mentioned Single Line Working in one of my previous posts. This is a temporary arrangement whereby a Pilotman "on the ground" controls movement in both directions over a single line with the Signaller's authority, usually because engineering works are blocking one or more running lines. Here the Pilotman issues Single Line Working Tickets, which are a temporary form of token. As a driver these have to be cancelled once you have come out of the Single Line Section. One 'comforting' aspect for drivers is that it's a rulebook requirement for the Pilotman to ride with you on your train if you are travelling towards an obstruction. When this happens and the Pilotman is sitting next to you on the footplate you know you're doing it right !

HTH
Foggy