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-   -   Tram vs. Train (https://www.railwayforum.net/showthread.php?t=1189)

hstudent 31st May 2007 09:40

Tram vs. Train
 
When the Metrolink was introduced to Manchester two train lines were closed to facilitate the running of trams. These were Altrincham to Manchester via Sale and Manchester to Rawtenstall via Bury. This has meant that people in places such as Sale and Bury don’t have a National Rail service. This in turn means that if people from these places want to go somewhere outside of Greater Manchester on a train then they would have to buy a tram ticket and a train ticket. Combined tickets are available to/from rail stations within Greater Manchester but railcard discounts are not available on these.

The Bury to Rawtenstall line has now become a tourist line with a steam train running on it. Regular buses run from Manchester city centre to Rawtenstall. Trains from Altrincham to Manchester (which originate from Chester or Northwich) have been diverted via Stockport and take about 10 minutes longer.

The Metrolink cannot cope with large suitcases or bicycles. Food and drink cannot be consumed on the Metrolink and there are no toilet facilities on the Metrolink or at most Metrolink stops.

The only real advantage of the Metrolink is that it allows people to get off closer to where they want to be in Manchester city centre.

The following proposals have now been made:

Running trams to the airport.
This may allow people to get closer to a hotel in Manchester that they will be staying at or to a location for a business meeting. However, the lack of luggage space could cause a problem.

Extending the tramline to the east side of Manchester.
Apparently this was done on a temporary basis during the Commonwealth Games using old American trams. I don’t know anything about the success of this or if it would involve closing any train lines.

Running tram-trains from Manchester City Centre to Northwich, Chester or Crewe.
This would re-link Sale to the National Rail network and allow faster journeys between Altrincham and Manchester. I personally would like to see this happen provided they use Manchester Piccadilly as the terminus rather than Deansgate G-Mex as it would allow better interchange within Manchester.

What do people think of the Metrolink in general and these proposals?

pavorossi 4th June 2007 17:15

As I'm from Bury I've got quite a lot of experience of the Metrolink system, and I personally think it's a waste of space. As for the proposals, I do think it would be useful for Bury to have a link to the airport again, I don't know East Manchester but if the roads are congested then I think that the Metrolink would be an advantage. But as to running tram-trains, I'm opposed to it, I believe it's easy enough to change at Piccadilly for a journey of that length.

Adam

hstudent 5th June 2007 09:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by pavorossi (Post 7962)
But as to running tram-trains, I'm opposed to it, I believe it's easy enough to change at Piccadilly for a journey of that length.

The only reason tram-trains are being considered is due to congestion around Stockport. They would allow 'trains' from Chester and Northwich to go directly in to Manchester shortening the overall journey time and reducing congestion.

However, they would need to remain part of the National Rail Network and have facilities like luggage and cycle space and toilets that are currently lacking on the Metrolink, if they were to be successful.

dlh1983 19th June 2007 11:41

As long as tram-trains ARE part of the National Rail Network they sound like a good idea. GMPTE think that offering combined tickets from stations within 20 miles of Manchester are good enough. However, they are expensive to purchase from outside of Greater Manchester and railcard discounts cannot be used.

swisstrains 19th June 2007 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlh1983 (Post 8204)
As long as tram-trains ARE part of the National Rail Network they sound like a good idea. GMPTE think that offering combined tickets from stations within 20 miles of Manchester are good enough. However, they are expensive to purchase from outside of Greater Manchester and railcard discounts cannot be used.

I thought that you could buy a ticket from any Network Rail station in the country to any Metrolink station.:confused:

dlh1983 20th June 2007 09:49

Sorry, you can buy a combined ticket from any national rail station provided you don't request a railcard discount. However, if your journey starts on the Metrolink and you want to change to a train then the only type of combined ticket you can purchase is a zonal one to stations in Greater Manchester only.

It's Wayfarer tickets which can only be purchased within a certain distance of Greater Manchester. Some of GMPTEs literature is confusing.

swisstrains 20th June 2007 10:10

Thanks for clarifying that.:)
It's yet another example of poor integration between different public transport operators. Even the combined ticket from Network Rail stations to Metrolink ones is hardly worth buying. It's only advantage is that it avoids having to buy two tickets but it is certainly no cheaper in my experience. I assume that it is Metrolink who won't give the railcard discount on their portion of the combined fare.

dlh1983 27th June 2007 14:01

It's Metrolink that won't give the discount. However you can't buy a ticket with a discount on just the rail part.

I've also heard that while you SHOULD be able to buy a combined ticket from any rail station, most ticket office personnel who aren't from the north west area wouldn't have a clue how to issue a combined ticket.

Jingling Geordie 10th August 2008 09:31

Tram v Train.

Am I being cynical or just naive but is the great joy of the tram really that you can control level crossings using no more than Traffic Lights?

What made me think this was a visit to Histon (to watch the footie.) and passing the site of the old Railway Station.

(Cambridge have opted to convert the once rail link to Huntingdon into a Tram Line.)

62430

Deathbyteacup 10th August 2008 18:28

I know this is an old thread but;

Quote:

The Bury to Rawtenstall line has now become a tourist line with a steam train running on it.
...This is quite the understatement of the ELR? :p And the ELR does offer cheap fares for local residents.

Quote:

Running trams to the airport.
This may allow people to get closer to a hotel in Manchester that they will be staying at or to a location for a business meeting. However, the lack of luggage space could cause a problem.

Extending the tramline to the east side of Manchester.
Apparently this was done on a temporary basis during the Commonwealth Games using old American trams. I don’t know anything about the success of this or if it would involve closing any train lines.

Running tram-trains from Manchester City Centre to Northwich, Chester or Crewe.
This would re-link Sale to the National Rail network and allow faster journeys between Altrincham and Manchester. I personally would like to see this happen provided they use Manchester Piccadilly as the terminus rather than Deansgate G-Mex as it would allow better interchange within Manchester.
As for the Airport, I don't think it should happen at the expense of the current rail connection to the Airport, although perhaps to supplement it, although as you say the luggage issue makes no sense and may have to be addressed with the new trams that are on order.

As for the East Manchester thing, a seccond route through the city IS being proposed but is a long way off - it would however ease congestion significantly and I would welcome that.

Only a single San-Fransisco MUNI car was brought over to Manchester Metrolink and was never used in public service on the basis it didn't work properly.

The third "proposal" is a completely new one and I'm not sure where you got that one from. I've heard of no proposals for "Tram-Trains". They sound like a silly idea anyway.

As for the Metrolink in general, I think the system is in dire need of new trams but the frequency of the service far FAR outweighs that British Rail provided, let us not forget.

hairyhandedfool 12th August 2008 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by hstudent (Post 7982)
The only reason tram-trains are being considered is due to congestion around Stockport. They would allow 'trains' from Chester and Northwich to go directly in to Manchester shortening the overall journey time and reducing congestion.

Maybe I switched realities, but didn't trains avoid Stockport before Metrolink came along!!!!:D

swisstrains 13th August 2008 18:49

There are various types of Tram-Trains in operation around the World and as a rule they have to be strong enough to withstand a collision with a "real" train (heavy rail).
As they are only likely to come into contact with road vehicles, conventional trams do not have to be built to such high standards so I am assuming that they would not be allowed to share the tracks with Tram-Trains. Therefore, unless Metrolink were willing to upgrade their entire fleet of conventional trams, I cannot see how Tram-Trains could be used on the system.
As has been suggested by others I think the best solution would be to upgrade the facilities available on the conventional trams rather than introducing Tram-Trains. Better interchange stations are required together with a thorough overhaul of the ticketing system.

Deathbyteacup 13th August 2008 19:37

Hopefully that will happen if the Anti-congestion charging lobby don't get their somewhat selfish way. (Unified smart-card ticketing, new trams, new routes etc.)

I think the Tram-Train thing is pure rumor or misconjecture since I've never heard a single mention of Tram-Trains running on Metrolink, ever, before this thread. :p

swisstrains 13th August 2008 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathbyteacup (Post 18166)
Hopefully that will happen if the Anti-congestion charging lobby don't get their somewhat selfish way. (Unified smart-card ticketing, new trams, new routes etc.)
...........................

There are many issues in this country which deserve to be put to the vote but Manchester's congestion charge isn't one of them.
Far too many people have an unhealthy love affair with their cars to vote sensibly:(

Ben H 7th December 2009 19:24

Trams in london Wimbledoen are good love them to pieces

Tony 7th December 2009 20:22

Dear Swisstrains,
When they manage to invent a form of mass public transport which has the flexibility of the car to get you from A to B in the quickest time and able to do multiple journeys during the days work - then people will think about it. Until then, the car reigns supreme.

swisstrains 7th December 2009 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony (Post 35715)
Dear Swisstrains,
When they manage to invent a form of mass public transport which has the flexibility of the car to get you from A to B in the quickest time and able to do multiple journeys during the days work - then people will think about it. Until then, the car reigns supreme.

That's exactly the kind of comment I would expect from someone who has yet to be convinced by the "recycling lobby" and "tree huggers" (your own words from a previous thread)
It's about time that motorists realised that personal convenience will sometimes have to be sacrificed for the good of the majority.

ccmmick 7th December 2009 21:55

I agree with you on that one John.

I work two days a week part time 9 miles away from home and i sold my car last year because people rely on them to much. The station is half a mile away i have a good bus service on nice days i either ride my pushbike or motorbike and i do not miss the car at all.
I have been to Plymouth today by rail no stress no bridge toll or parking a good day out Dinner in a pub a couple of pints and a double whiskey so i couldnt drive home anyway.

ccmmick.

Axe 8th December 2009 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by swisstrains (Post 35717)
It's about time that motorists realised that personal convenience will sometimes have to be sacrificed for the good of the majority.

It's more to the point that government, local councils and managers employed in public transport need to realise that most people are not sympathetic at having to stand in the pouring rain for 45 minutes waiting for a bus (like I did yesterday), and that train fares are too expensive to make railway travel a viable option. I'm reasonably happy using the bus for local travel (being of pensionable age I have a 'free' bus pass), but until things change, like most people I will continue to enjoy the convenience and lower cost of a motor car for longer journeys.

Chris

richard thompson 9th December 2009 11:43

There is the Metro from Birmingham to Wolverhampton near us. As yet there has been no expansion from the 1st line though it is in the "pipeline". I often think that reopening as a heavy railway would have given an extra corridor between Birmingham and Wolvohampton and not taken a platform from Snow Hill.
Richard.

ccmmick 9th December 2009 16:06

As a child living in Bradford i remember the trams a great form of transport and then the trolley bus good clean transport.
We lost ours in "GREAT BRITAIN?" and Europe kept there's.
But i am glad to see them making a come back in the cities.

ccmmick.

WatcherZero 25th February 2010 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by richard thompson (Post 35815)
There is the Metro from Birmingham to Wolverhampton near us. As yet there has been no expansion from the 1st line though it is in the "pipeline". I often think that reopening as a heavy railway would have given an extra corridor between Birmingham and Wolvohampton and not taken a platform from Snow Hill.
Richard.

Its because its the only tramline in the country that since opening has decreased rather than increased in passengers. http://www.pteg.net/NR/rdonlyres/D2D...FINAL15Feb.pdf

look on page 7. Nottinghams NET hasnt been too hot either.


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