Enough Northern!
 

I have complained in the past about northern, but now enough is enough.
Yesterday on my way home I counted 40 people between the front seats and the drivers cab on the 142 in charge.
There was an unbelievable crush and there was around 4 people in the vestibule. The fact is that you (northern rail) are taking the ****.

You are quite happy to see trains dangerously overcrowded, with must be at least twice the number of recommended passengers on board. It is dangerous and most likely unlawful.
There is a high risk of people getting hurt, and lets not forget that the majority of the trains are in very bad condition.
Granted, some trains are appearing externally cleaner in recent months, but that does not substitiute for the foul state on the interior.

Toilets seem to be universally blocked, with much urine on the floor and taps that do not work and soap dispensers that do not dispense.

Your staff can be rude and unhelpful. I understand that you must go through the DFT to aqquire new or more trains, but with nothing so much as an apology, your conduct is quite honestly disgusting.
DMUs break down on a regular basis (despite your reliability rating) and substitutes are poor, with no extra services although the number of passengers build up.

You have failed in your duty of care and care and current standards stand
out from other TOCs as being almost third world.
Quite plainly you do not deserve the extension to the franchise. All this and still your website goes on about how good you are.

Sooner or later there will be an accident. One that is too terrible to think of and you and no one else will be at fault, and I am amazed that it has not already happened.
Do something.
Not next year, not next month, do it NOW!!!!!

i used to travel on a 142 from man vic to stalybridge,the train was like a cattle truck even then,everyone squashed near the doors even though you could stand in the aisle,why do people do this?must admit though,i do stand near the doors on the bury tram,only because ive been unable to get to get off at crumpsall,and then the tram pulls out before you can reach the doors,i then end up at bowker vale,anyway back to northern,i think northern are a good operator,the trains are ancient[granted]but in man vics case-the staff are friendly,ive also seen more than once,the dispatch fella on platform 5 knocking on the windows and telling passengers to move along the carriage and away from the doors,if your train was so overcrowded it shouldnt have been allowed to leave,what route was this on?in the late 90s i used to get a 2 carriage train from man picc to nottingham-then central trains,a 158 used to come into picc,it was standing all the way to sheffield,then again on the way back from notts to chesterfield[if you were lucky]sometimes to sheffield again,i must admit it was nice getting rail vouchers from them after i had a good moan,anyway after that i got on at oxford road and stood until picc then dived into the nearest seat,northern compared to them are great.

When you buy a ticket for a journey that's what you get, you don't pay for a seat ...........unless you reserve one.

Have a look in the back of this m onths Trains Illustrated its the new DMU for Northern!!!!!

New DMU?
Well its needed to say the least.

Although you don't pay for a seat you are entrusting them with your life, so you at least expect to be safe and to feel safe.

Im not defending Northern, i think they run dirty and poorly cleaned trains, however its out of their control. They are paid by the government to operate a certain number of services and the government takes a flat 80% of their ticket revenue earned from them in franchise fees. They run the rolling stock the dft assigns them, again they cant put on extra stock if a: it doesnt exist and b: the dft wont pay for it.

If you want less crowded trains complain to government, its them that really run our railways. With the exception of a few operators the franchises are glorified outsourced operational management.

Just lately I've had to use the London underground, and if you want to know what crowding is, that's the place to go!
I agree totally SFE, these conditions are unacceptable.
mickey

This is the thing though, the TOCs should be able to buy their own trains. Northern and other companies cannot help it sometimes, but its when they don't even admit anything is wrong, let alone apologise that really boils my blood.

I have to agree with recent trends that Privatisation is failing, although I have always supported it in the past. It's just too complicated to run. Many want BR back, but I'm sad to say I don't know how much better off we would be, if at all in terms of service.

Ah, here we go again.

I've experienced this occasionally when the service before the one I am on has failed or been canceled, trying to shoehorn too many people into a 142 to the point where the doors don't close, isn't nice, but, I have to take issue with you on a few points;

1) On every occasion people have been instructed to move down the train, and do so.
2) Northern Rail are not responsible for people choosing where to stand.
3) You can move down into the vestibule yourself and / or ask others to do so. You didn't?
4) Apart from the pacers, Northern's trains seem fine inside, specifically, their sprinters and adelente units have all been comfortable and clean to me. Maybe I've not got very high standards.
5) Pacers are for getting commuters in and out of the city quickly, they do kinda fill a roll. They're not plesent but they do their job. This isn't Northern's fault, they have to use them.
6) I can tell you now that I've been on a Northern train that WAS dirty because it wasn't cleaned, and the conductor apologised for this on several
occasions. The interiors are usually "clean", save for the litter placed during the journey, it's just the interior itself I think you have a problem with?
7) Toilets are universally blocked - this is a lie. They're just not.
8) Staff can be rude and unhelpful - never, ever experienced this. Everyone I've ever delt with has been a pleasure.
9) DMU's break down - this would be Pacers, but again, not Northern's fault.


I personally think Northern have made the very best of what they've been given. Compared to the previous incumbants of the franchise, they're amazing. I'd personally like to see them stay. It's the DfT that need to make the changes needed to the franchise, not Northern.

You sound like someone with an axe to grind just because you've had an unpleasent trip. Sadly, that's just reality, regardless of TOC.

Well I am not involved in this discussion in as much as I dont know Northern, or indeed any of the other private companys, but my goodness, what a way to carry on, on the railway.
Who would have thought that it would come to this.

It all boils down to the fact that todays railway is not being run by railwaymen/women. It is being run by private companys with a very great emphasise on money money money and the people in charge have as much interest in railways as I have in ballet dancing.

48111

What colour is your tutu ? :D

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:Z...k_tutu.jpg&t=1

:D:D
Shut up :D

Oh no. If you REALLY want to see overcrowding go to Tokyo/Yokohama and look at the suburban lines. Have a butchers at Youtube. [don't have to register] and type "Japan trains" in the search box. Couple of video's on there show the "Crushers!" making sure bums are inside the car.

A few things I may not have explained about this.
On my particular journey that made me snap, people had no choice where to stand. The isles were full so the vestibule was the only choice for many.
I reached Piccadilly early and was one of the first people on board, so I got a seat. Toilets are blocked. If they aren't, you still would not want to go.
I'm afraid to say that customer service that I and others have recieved is terrible. Pacers are not designed for Commuter work at all. Rural branchlines was supposed to be their stamping ground.
With all respect, am I right in thinking that you yourself work for the railways in Manchester?

I havent read all of this thread but what I would say is it is not enterley Northern Rail's fault as for one if the Guards didn't allow pepole to pile on the train ei. once the train starts to beciome full with a certain ammount of standiong pasengers then close the doors early.

And if pasengers didn't insist on piling on th etrain there wouldn't be a problem thats where it all starts becuse people won't wait an extra 5 minutes for the next train.

I agree about the Toilets and the staff as Northerns problem is that they stable trins all over the place and offten in the middle of no where just to save a few pounds.

The 158 are so rubbish as they dont have very many seats and they can get busy so quickly and they only come in sets of 2

There does seem to be a definate problem, does the modern railway not have carriage cleaners ?
Is there not a clause somwehere in their contract to run the trains, that the trains must be clean and serviceable ?

48111

I'm not sure if clean comes into it anymore, its most likely all words like satisfactory and serviceable, and even these vague words are used loosley.

You say the toilets are blocked as if it's a fact, you don't provide a source for that statement, you just say it as if it's true. I've been on 3 Northern services today, the toilets have been fine on each one. If all the toilets are blocked, why is that?

Rural branch lines exist because of commuters, for the record.

On the customer service front, if I've never had bad customer service from Northern, why is that? I don't understand. Please explain to me when you've had bad customer service specifically?

Also, I do not work for the railways, I work for Manchester City Council.

Who took the Great out of Britain
 

Having spent the Bank Holiday weekend in Europe all I can say about the condition of trains here is UGH!
Eurostars are getting a little shabby again, Belgium: interiors clean, trains on time, unfortunately the Graffitti artists have spoilt the exteriors, Luxembourg: clean and tidy, France: clean and tidy, Austria: clean and tidy, Switzerland: superb as usual.
Most foreign railways, including the private ones build trains for passengers, windows and seats line up, you don't have to look at the train side, information normally given in two or three languages, toilets aplenty, need I go on?
As an ex British Rail employee, and a couple of private companies before retirement all I can say the deteriation of both rolling stock and services is an absolute disgrace.
Enough said, except the last leg of my journey home was on Northern late last night and I could find fault but nothing seriously wrong, whilst from Euston to Lancaster the guard/train manager never once came through the train and no tickets were checked.
Bon Voyage


Davat:confused::(:confused:

i live in crumpsall on the bury line,and commute to walkden on the wigan via atherton line,i can leave crumpsall and arrive in walkden 30 minutes later,northern are i think running most of the trains on time,and the toilets are working and clean,the metrolink which is supposed to be every 6 minutes[ha ha what a joke]the only time i miss my train to work is when the tram pulls up after a 20 minute delay and its packed-as is the one behind it,northern have also started running a sunday service on the atherton line,which for me is a godsend,extortionate first bus could take me 2 hours to get home as the service is that bad,on a sunday anyway,northern are doing a great job.

If things are as bad as you say and all complaints have fell on deaf ears - BOYCOTT the services and use another form of transport that gets you to your destination !!!
If enough did this then they might do something
What about every one on the train reserving a seat on a daily basis in advance? They might then add extra carriages knowing they have reached capacity and are breaking H & S by letting more on.

The majority of NR trains I have been on the toilest have been bunged up plus theey are definatly not clean nor are EMTs Trains nor are ATW and SWT claened very well they do have cleners but theesed ays they are more of a litter picker than anything carpets don't get cleaned toilets get a few squirtes of disinfectant spray and run over with a dirty mop its all to do wth money that it the problem not jsut with northern with every TOC arround but yet in my persoinal exprences Northern do seem to be the worst in all the TOCs ive ever travled with in asspects.

They slag FGW off all the time but wdespite a few tproblems with failing trians there trians do seem relativley claean andwas made well aware of what was going on on well don FG.

Hah, how weird. You do exactly my journey to work but in reverse. I travel TO Crumpsall. :p

I agree with this though. I just know I can turn up at the station and be in Crumpsall in about half an hour. Northern are doing their job.

well said dbtc,northern do run a good service,in the days of north western trains-i finished work and was waiting for a train at swinton for the last train to manchester,i waited for an hour in bitterly cold weather and nothing showed up,even the lights were turned off on the station,then came in the last train to wigan from manchester[delayed],i asked the guard[cant quite get used to saying conductor]what happened to my train, and when will it turn up,he said the only way i would get to manchester was get on his train to wigan and then come back again,this must be a record?i was there at 22.40,and was still there at 23.40 when the train pulled in from the opposite direction,if i would of boarded the train to wigan[30 mins]then wait for the turn back?then 47 minutes back to manchester and then miss the last tram from vic to crumpsall,i got a taxi in the end and sent a receipt and my ticket to north western trains,they sent me a fiver-wow wee,it cost me a tenner in the taxi,now northern are the operater,things have improved,they are installing passenger help points on some stations on the line-as well as a tannoy system that will tell you if your train will turn up..or not,at the end of a hard days work you just want to get home..northern arent the best but are a far better operater than the ones who tried to run trains in the area mentioned,br,regional railways,north western trains,first north western trains,its much more reliable now northern run the trains.

I have indeed had some bad times with Northern rail. About 8 weeks ago while taking friends on a trip into Manchester, the guard became very impatient when I asked for more than two tickets. There being five of us. After the second (I had explained what I wanted clearly and politely I add) he said "For goodness sake waht d'ya want now?"
Now as someone who does not work for a franchise, I'm no expert, but even I can see something is wrong here.
Then I heard of someone being given a hard time because he tried to pay with a £50 note. The guard wanted to throw the poor bloke off the train and raised his voice and threatened him with prosecution for not paying, when in fact the guard just didn't have the change.

Whether the toilets are blocked or not it does not excue the general state they can be left in.

I'd like to say here, that seeing some of the quotes made by Steam for ever, this gentleman certainly does have a very sharp axe to grind.
Maybe he just doesnt like going to work everyday, so always travels with a very large chip on his shoulder, and unfortunately Northern get the brunt.

I'd like to say here, that I DO work for Northern.

Whilst I can understand the frustrations of travel via trains ( something I've been doing for donkeys years ) there are lots of areas where Mr Steam just does not work out.

Carrying passengers safely is a priority for Northern.

You will not find any train on the network that is unsafe.

I've read some of the tales users have put on this website about "doors flapping open", and can only say rubbish!!

It physically cannot happen. There are safety measures in place to prevent this happening.

All rail companies operate what is known as a "fail safe" policy, this meaning that if something fails it will cause the train to stop/cut off power supplies and basically not work.

With over 250 trains on the Northern network at any one time it is very difficult to repair everything that goes wrong/gets broken/is vandalised, and at times you will see temporary repairs, but they will be SAFE repairs, because if they are not, the TRAIN WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO GO!

Northern also has very high standards of cleanliness. If a train is dirty, it would only be down to the passengers using it. There can be limited times when it is possible to get staff to clean a train, especially when it is not due back to a major station/depot for upto 7 days at a time.

Enough said, moan about that if you please, I dont care.

Moan I shall.
Simply blaming passengers is not good enough. It is Northerns job to keep the trains clean so whats the problem? I can tell you that I am more than happy with many other operaters and that Northern sticks out like a sore thumb compared to the others. I am not the only one that complains and you know that, I know that, and anyone who reads a decent railway magazine knows that as well.
I might be mistaken but caring is very important. If not then this is not a railway, but a cattle drive.

Over the past 10 years of using trains to get to/ from work and leisure trips. I have used Northern and their predecessors. I have always kept pressure on my local MP in regards of bigger (better) trains and extra services. When other people have moaned, I have told them to pressurise their MPs, as they are the only ones (collectively) that can improve services/ quality of stock etc.

I'd say Northern have got more of a grip on things than previous operators. Cleanliness of trains has improved greatly. Reliability and punctuality of the services have greatly improved.

There are still many things that could be done better, but these can't be done because of the government. The DfT let the Northern Rail Franchise on a no growth, so there was no chance to improve service levels/ new stock.

Rumor is Northern did want to buy new trains at the start of the franchise, but the government said no.

Since the franchise began Northern has seen about a 34% growth in passenger figures (considering the franchise forecast was let with no growth exppected), which is the biggest growth of any franchise TOC's.

Northern didn't rest on their laurals. They and the government undertook a review of services (government with a view to reduce services/ number of trains). But the report came out saying that the franchise was growing quickly with passenger numbers up and that the franchise was crying out for extra stock.

Northern Rail did manage to secure a deal for extra trains. I think this was about 38 extra (2- car) Class 158 DMU's. With the introduction of these extra 158s, Northern were planning to place a good number Class 142s into store/ off lease. But as the introduction of the 158s started it sooner learned that they would not be geting the 38 158s, in that 8x 158s were to be going to ScotRail, and 2 or 4 x 158s were to go to East Midlands Trains. The upshot of the EMT move was that Northern would get some Class 158 centre cars from EMT, to fit into some of Northern's 158s. A small number of 142s did go into store but nowhere near the numbers planned. So the 142s had to remain in service. ScotRail took our expected 158s as they said they were in no way going to take on Class 142s which were off lease (as 142s were the only stock available for redeployment).

Those (I think 7) 142s that did go into store were transfered to First Great Western on loan. Which have started to be returned to Northern with the remainder coming back when FGW gets other cascaded units from London Overground/ London Midland.

Also Northern have been able to secure 3x 5-car Class 180 DMUs on loan from National Express East Coast (before NatEx handed the franchise back) to increase capacity.

When the Oldham Loop closed, Northern were going to lose the 5x class 142s (going off lease). But since demand increased on nearby lines, Northern were able to retain these 5 units for strengthening work.

Since Northern started the franchise, they seem to have utilised their units better than previous operators, increasing capacity were required.
The introduction of more Class 158s introduced an internal cascade of units. 158s took over 156 diagrams, which were deployed onto other services that were operated by 150 or 142. The 150s or 142s displaced cascaded down to
diagrams operated by Class 153s or 142s, which were displaced to help increase capacity on other services (added onto trains). So the 158s offered increased capacity down the internal cascade, as 156s gave an increase in capacity to 142 diagrams, the 142s able to increase capacity of 153 diagrams. So a quick win all round.

The toilet issue is not really down to Northern, but is attributed to people putting stuff that isn't supposed to be put down toilets like paper towels, newspapers, bottles, food wrappers etc. When there has been this problem, Northern have tried to clear the blockage at the earliest oppertunity in the diagram. Sometimes even swapping units so to deal with the problem.

So if you keep putting pressure onto your local MPs there might be more chance of getting better/ newer trains/ increasing service levels.

Bottom line is it is down to the government, who call the shots with rail franchises.

So things aren't as bad as what some people make it out to be.

Welcome to the Forum Dave and thanks for putting Northern's side of the story. I don't live in the area so can't comment but it does seem to be a topic which gets several members rather worked up!

Hope you keep posting your views. Lively, polite debate is always welcome!

Best wishes,

John H-T.

Welcome to the Forum Harold.

Many thanks for your comments on Northern. It all helps those of us who don't live in the area to try to understand the situation!

Best wishes,

John H-T.

glad you say enoughts enough hope it last we will here you moan about railways enthusiast do not run them down the poeple in your area make the trains scruffy as it does not happen in other places keep taking your pills

Hi all...
My first post on here and I'm heading straight into this firefight, in at the deep end I feel! I don't work for Northern, but I am a guard for a TOC a fair but further south. As far as the overcrowding issue goes, there was a study some time ago which concluded (conveniently) that a train which is packed solid is, in fact, the safest environment to be in, as there is less chance of being thrown around inside the train in an accident due to the cushioning effect of the other people packed in around you. Yep, really! We can all make our own assesments of that, but it effectively means that there is no recourse from a H&S point of view when it comes to a packed train. As has been mentioned already, if you venture down onto the Tube during a busy peak period it gives a whole new meaning to 'busy'!
As for the Guard's responsibilities, TOC's will all say that it is the Guard's decision as to when the train becomes unsafe, but the reality is that it's extremely difficult to police how many people board a train in the middle of rush hour, and cancelling a service or attempting to forcibly offload people is not something that would go down well. Indeed, simply trying to prevent excess loading of pushbikes is often akin to climbing a very steep mountain (more experience in that department only yesterday!). People will pack themselves into a train to a ridiculous degree out of sheer desperation not to have to wait for another service. It isn't ideal to have that situation, but it is, for the time being at least, just the way of things. On the issues of rolling stock, TOC's have no incentive to purchase their own due to the nonsensical system of such short franchises; they simply can't guaruntee a return on their investment. I play with 'Pacers' most days and, whilst I have no working knowledge of Northern's fleet, they are pretty effective at crowd shifting on busy, short routes, and with a bit of money spent they can be fairly passable as a modern(ish) train - though not on jointed track or sharp curves! The 158s are generally pleasant to travel on, but slow to load large crowds due to the door/vestibule/luggage rack arrangements. The 150s are possibly about the best of the old BR era stock for a busy rush hour, though they suffer from slow and sometimes unreliable doors. With the general shortage of stock, some of the problems are caused simply by the 'wrong' trains being put on the 'wrong' routes, but then again anything is usually better than nothing!

Welcome to the Forum CaravanClub and thanks for your contribution to this controversial topic! Look forward to more!

Best wishes,

John H-T.

One point id like to make is that I liver near INCE in Wigan but buy the time I pedal to INCE Station I can be in Wigan in the same ammount of time so don't realy need to use Norhern Trains anymore "Yipppee" plu sif I go to Liverpool I go Via Warrington and Hunts Cross on the 07.53 etc.

I do find the attitude of some of the Staff in the Merseyside area of the operation quite rude and offten ignorant I gather it must be to do with the area.

Sorry but I agree Northern are fairly poor
 

Typical talk of the cleanliness and toilets problem being because of the poor travellers. I regularly use the Carnforth to Leeds (so called) "service" via the Skipton line, taking the first train of the day. It's often filthy - that's simply because it wasn't cleaned from the day before - it's the first train of the day - litter on the floor, still-wet spills on the seats etc. Often stuck on it for best part of two hours, toilets are sometimes blocked meaning quite an uncomfortable 2 hours!! Clearly, it's not been cleaned and maintained overnight!

Not to mention two hours being stuck on an old and uncomfortable train is not pleasant. These old 2 car DMUs are not meant for long, slow journeys like that. No refreshments, only one toilet (if you're lucky), etc. Once you get to Skipton and get closer to Leeds, the train gets so full, it's claustrophobic - aisles can sometimes be completely blocked with dozens of people.

It's alright for people living in cities to say just wait and take another train - there is only ONE train to get you to Leeds before lunchtime!