Diesel "clag" ?
 

It seems diesel loco fans, particularly heritage locos, are rather fond of "clag".

That is the dense black smoke that can be exhausted when the said loco is under load.

As this black diesel fog is likely to be carcinogenic, should we be concerned ? More so because of the current climate change discussions.

Or, am I just an old fart being a killjoy ?:confused:

To the best of my knowledge the CLAG is Carbon Monoxide, mixed with all sorts of nasties from the internal combustion process.
Carbon monoxide is short-lived in the atmosphere (with an average lifetime of about one to two months), and spatially variable in concentration.
There is no mention in Wiki as to this gas having carcinogenic properties, although it will kill you in certain circumstances. Just ask any canary who worked down the pit. The gas enters the blood stream some 200 times faster than Oxygen.
Best try to avoid it is my tip.☠☠☠☠
Stuart.

Do you mean avoid clag, or diesels altogether??!!:)

Tony

As an ex-firefighter, I was taught that Carbon Monoxide is EXTREMELY POISONOUS. It grabs onto the Haemoglobin in the blood and forms CarboxyHaemoglobin - preventing the usual arrangement where oxygen from the lungs binds with Haemoglogin to form OxyHaemoglobin. This will lead to unconsciousness and eventually death. Once it's in your bloodstream it's hard to get out.

The giveaway symptom is drowsyness, together with a 'cherry red' complexion - the victim looks very healthy, but is in fact in great danger.

However this rarely occurs in the open because it should dissipate into the air. It's in enclosed spaces like sheds and cellars where it can build up.

I'm led to believe that modern internal combustion engines don't produce significant amounts of CO, due in part of the catalytic converter scrubbing it.

However this is all from memory when I was a lad, back in the 1980s. The world was very different then. :(

Don’t want to upset anyone Tony, but it’s definitely one of the above.
Stuart.:D

Although it will be present in the exhaust fumes Carbon Monoxide is colourless. The visible "clag" will be mostly caused by inefficient combustion of the fuel and many of the hydrocarbon components that are blended to make up this fuel are carcinogenic.

We were told, when I worked in a coal mine, you didn't have to worry about whitedamp (CO), you would be dead before you realised it was present.

I remember a conversation about various machinery exhaust fumes.
And, carcinogenic substances involved in construction and transport.
Asbestos being one of the more dastardly.
There was an electric loco in the USA which had an oil bath transformer.
Cleaning that proved to be very carcinogenic for maintenance staff.
BUT, I was told that of all the chemicals, including those in exhaust fumes, the WORST found on weasels was Aflok (not sure how to spell it being a company title).
Pink coloured Aflok had heaps of heavy elements in it to prevent corrosion in the loco donk water cooling supply.
Part of loco prep was to open the water tank level sight gauge to drain out the sight glass.
Then shut to view the water level appear to ensure sufficient water supply existed.
So, we got it on our hands every day.
I guess that with any technology, there will always be something which later proves to be nasty.
Leaded paint, leaded petrol, DDT, and so on.
BUT, as to weasel exhaust fumes, GOTTA LUV Aussie Alco black plumes erupting from the exhaust stack.
Honorary soot belchers.
Just hold year breath when it stomps past.
Steve.

Standing on the top of the front water tender of a Garratt, while taking on water, and the driver shovels a few lumps of coal into the box, we would get a good coating of smoke and all the other muck mixed in with it. Still, I don't think it was much worse than the 20 I used to smoke a day. Between the 1/- pack of 20 fags and the smoke from the firebox, how the hell am I still alive?

TUT tut Syd,
20 a day would cost you an absolute fortune here now days.
And finding the ciggy pack in yer soot covered overalls would be a challenge.
Packs of ciggies here painted BLACK to infer the gunge going into yer lungs.
They built railroaders tough in the good ole days.
That be why you is still above ground.
I gave that caper away a goodly 30 years ago.
But had to still put up with the passive smoke, NO not from a beloved aussie alco, in the cab.
Getting the OLD Blokes to give up the ciggies on the footplate was a challenge when such became illegal in the workplace.
YOU smoked Winfield RED, one of the worst, they would bark back at me.
AH the good ole days.
Steve.

Haven't touched a fag for over 35 years now Steve. I gave up fags over 45 years ago. Then changed to a pipe. I said to myself, "if I can give up fags, then I can give up the pipe as well, which I'm proud to say I did within a year. The problem was that Rhodesia was a Tobacco producing country and we could buy a pack of 20 for 1/-, or 5p in todays UK money, or 6d for the cheap non filtered fags. Like a lot of Ex. smokers I can't stand the smell of fags or most pipes.

AH, the cherry rub pipe blend, I did go through many packs of that.
But, me jaw ached all the time that a pipe was hanging out of it.
The height of sophistication it was presumed to have a pipe hanging out of yer gob.
And, yes I also chewed on cigars.
You are getting better every day off the gaspers, so say the medicos.
Yes, the pong of passive smoke did annoy.
But, by far the worst side effect of giving up them gaspers was the crawling skin when at a pub still enshrouded in gasper plumes.
It takes many moons for society to alter previously accepted attitudes.
I reflect upon images from my childhood.
The open fireplace mantle at my Grand Parents abode in the country.
A pipe rack on that mantle along with the ubiquitous mantle pendulum clock.
Cooking toast on long forks in front of that fire.
NET ZERO 2050 will definitely force some images to vanish.
That will include me beloved aussie alco weasels.
Steve.

Hi Steve, my mother was a smoker in all the time I was a kid, my father did smoke during WWII in the navy, but gave it up when the war ended and he meet my mother. Mum gave up smoking just before I left home to join the army, but I still smoked, (a pipe) in the army. I gave up smoking after I came to the UK. I paid 1/- for a pack of 20 Pall Mell in Rhodesia, but I was dammed if I was going to pay nearly 3/- for a pack of 20 in the UK. So I gave up in 1970 and still don't smoke. The one thing that surprised me was that it did not worry me if others smoked around me.

Just accidently landed on this YouTube item...

Link....37 thrash with flames

Is there a reason for doing this, or is the driver just a tit?

(I do know that this is an unofficial method used to clean out Diesel Particulate Filters on modern cars).

Cheers, John

The Commer two stoke lorry would do that periodically, smoke, flames, and sparks, it was de-coking itself.

The Commer knocker, next to the Foden, was a tribute to twin bell crank single crankshaft opposed piston two stroke Diesel engine trucks.
I lived in Dyserth North Wales until I was ten years old and remember the noise and fog generated by the knockers going down Waterfalls Hill in first gear with a full 8 tonne load of limestone from Dyserth Quarry on route for Shotton steel woks.
I still love the sound and smell of a two stroke Diesel under full load.

G'day BW,
I have managed to grab a very low res version of the video clip to view at home.
Me el cheapo www runs outa puff shortly and I still have a little data credit loitering.
I am not going any where near the local library due to our plague infections skyrocketing.
Viewing the clip, I am unable to determine if any gradient exists facing the train.
My ONLY exposure to EEs be the ones that I drove down in Van Diemens Land.
Them EEs performing a traction amps cycling when powering at or near maximum.
I am not sure why, but may be due to the type of load regulator employed.
And may also be a facet of Short Time Ratings.
It could also be a facet of the donk governor employed.
Our 44 class mark one beasties had the GE governor.
And, those units had a slightly irregular idling sound.
Whereas the Woodward Governor used on all others had an even idling sound.
EMD, Alco, Cat weasels plus buzzboxes that I worked do not cycle traction amps.
Though, our 86 class could reduce demand after exceeding the max amps for a period.
Short Time Ratings are utilized on DC traction weasels.
The maximum working traction amps may be exceeded for a short period or minutes.
If the loco is worked beyond that period, the traction motors can cook.
Most four strokers can suffer from Turbo Lag.
There are two types of donk boosting, turbo and supercharger.
A supercharger is mechanically driven, while a turbo is exhaust gas driven.
Generally, the exhaust driven versions can suffer from turbo lag, and belch out plumes of black exhaust.
A white grey exhaust is evidence of a COLD donk, burning oil, which can occur until the donk achieves operating temperature.
Seals within the donk will become tight again when working temp is achieved.
Turbo lag can occur when an idling donk is revved to produce traction oomph after a long period of idling.
Grabbing a fist full of notches suddenly causing a lag in the fuel burning and turbo operation.
This can also occur if the loco is notched up and down repetitively within a short period.
A sick donk can also produce black exhaust due to incorrect fuel consumption when unused fuel is expelled through the turbo.
Exhaust flames occur when the fuel burning mix is too rich and again excess fuel is blown out like a Back Fire.
The fuel igniting due to the different temp between the donk and atmosphere.
A four stroker turbo unit burning rich under full load can light the nite sky up with exhaust sparks.
SO, either yer class 37 hogger is manually notching up and down to maintain a certain road speed.
Slightly stupid, as he could simply run at a set notch that will haul the train regardless of speed.
OR, the class 37 is sick and requires maintenance
Either way, any repetitive increase and decrease in donk revs can result in turbo lag, and incorrect fuel consumption.
Notching up one at a time allowing the donk revs and traction amps to settle reduces the turbo lag event.
Plus also provides a constant pull on the couplers and reduces slack action.
Then, when needing to reduce speed, notch back one at a time.
BUT come on, what fun is there in that.
RIP and TEAR and get em to belch out plumes of black smoke.
Honorary soot belchers.
Steve.

Hi Steve, thanks for that - very interesting.

Well there you go, I didn't know that. Everyday's a school day, especially when you've spent your railway career on 'squeaky clean but oh so dull' EMUs.

I remember being told by some 'East Coast Racing Hero' drivers that the EE Class 55 (Deltics) were absolute swine to Ease Up with. You'd open up gently - nothing. Give it another notch - nothing. Give it another notch - nothing. Then BOOM all the horses came out at once. Still they had good buffers in those days, and you can promise the passengers in First Class that the red wine will come out of their best suit if they put some salt on it quickly enough. ;)

I have the BR Driver's Manual for the 37 that a colleague gave me when he was cleaning out his locker. It's fascinating stuff, that 1950s technology. Nothing that can't be brought back to life with a cheery swing of a club hammer.

Anyway I hope ya having a decent New Year and the plague hasn't got ya. I copped the Omicron thing recently, about a fortnight after I'd had the latest booster. It was not too bad, but I'm glad I'd been jabbed. Bleeding typical though. I went out sociably for the first time in at least six months and I bagged the bogie prize. Still that's one more for my library of antibodies I guess.

Keep safe...John

Cooee BW,
Not good that you copped the plague, but at least you were boosted hence not suffering seriously.
Yes, the plague is going berserk everywhere.
I wonder what will happen here in four months time when we begin to shiver.
Our plague is now the worst that it has ever been, and we are in summer time.
So, I am still hiding from the plague here as best as possible.
I got boosted just afore Santa time, and would guess that we will require a fourth jab prior to shivering time.
Bathurst council put on some pops and bangs at 2100 on New Years Eve at the showground.
But, I did not attend, I could hear it from home, and watched the smog hollow pops and bangs on tv.
AH, you got the class 37 ops manual.
You might do some research reading for me while you are recovering from the plague.
Firstly, does it mention either a supercharger or turbo ? (I am guessing a turbo).
That will answer one question regarding yer black exhaust belching video clip.
Secondly, what Governor is mentioned; GE, Woodward, Other ?
The Throttle (Master Controller), is that Notched, OR, Sweep style ?
The Van Demonian EEs had either depending on the class.
The Y class had a notched throttle, while the Z, ZA, ZC, ZB had the sweep type.
Notching up and down with the sweep type is a tad more awkward determining the desired traction amps.
And, is much easier to cause a greater donk revs alteration if not careful.
Prior to my deportation, the only weasel that I played with having the sweep throttle were the 73 class.
They are diesel hydraulic with Cat donks.
Your EE anti-slip brake is a nightmare.
That naturally applies the loco brakes when wheel slip is detected and CANNOT be removed.
So, you are suddenly not only fighting the steep gradient, but also the loco brakes slammed on.
When that slams on, it can also cause an increase in donk revs resulting from the traction amps demand altering.
With Westinghouse brakes, IF the wheel slip becomes severe, you can slightly whip on and off the independent.
You still have control of how much independent is used and for how long.
Though, in the video clip I did not squiz the tell tale sign of sand puffing out onto the rails to indicate wheel slip.
Mind you, the video clip resolution grabbed is not very good, so details are slightly unclear.
As to yer BR class 55 Deltics, they had a pair of Napier donks which were Two Strokers from memory.
Not only the problem of governor sync for dual donk revs and generator output, but also the "rubber band" effect.
With our EMD things here for shunting, you had to wait for the rubber band to wind up before they would move.
VERY tardy to respond for low notch shunting they was compared to our glorious Aussie Alcos.
Put an Aussie Alco in gear, take a notch and release the independent and it is OFF and running.
So, YES, I would imagine that controlling a Deltic for low speed shunting would be awkward.
We would load up the EMD amps necessary with the independent brake applied.
Then once sufficient amps were being produced, gradually release the independent, but not all the way off.
Controlling the loco speed with the independent brake.
Notching up and down on an EMD to control loco speed was not a good result.
Shunting night time Mail cattle trains here was a required skill to prevent snotting it too hard.
Plus, hooking up the Silver Streak car carrier wagon to the front in smog hollow yard.
Our 86 class buzzboxes would suddenly amp right up in demand when train speed was about to stop.
When powering to a stop due to a rising gradient.
Shutting off would result in a thump and coupler slack run-in action, (cop that in the dining car).
So, with the train brakes applied to stop, you then gradually applied the independent.
With both brakes applied, you then shut off power.
There would be a huge BANG when the high speed circuit breaker tripped.
But, there was no resulting thump to the train.
Eventually, it was made ILLEGAL to shunt a cattle train with any cattle on board.
That also applies to our emu and dmu sets being amalgamating, kick out the cattle first, then shunt.
Can't have the claret pouring out of the cattle snozes.
AH, I do miss them good ole days.
Steve.

Yo Steve.

Seems I had a bit of a BrainFart.

The only manual I have is for a Type 4, not a 3. Which isn't much good.

Because good old BR played a fast one on me the blighters, and things aren't what I thought they were. I was given a lovely green plastic bound cover labelled "Train Crew manual - Class 37 Refurbished Locomotives". But underneath in much smaller writing it says Drivers Fault Finding Data. I hadn't noticed that.

So I'd hoped it was a book saying how everything worked, and what was connected to what, whereas it's actually what we nowadays call a Matrix. It's full of schematics showing 10 things to do when the Blue Light comes on.

So not any help, sorry.:(

If it's any consolation, I'm pretty sure the controller on the 37 is a 4-notch type though, like most UK diseasals.

I do also have a book called The BR Diesel Engine Driver's book. It tends not to be too specific, and shows diagrams of 'a typical generator' rather than being specific, but I can have a search through it and see if I can glean any details.

In fact it will be a nice little project as the WX here has turned cold at last. I can break open the Bells and sit down for a long read.

And at least we've had the Solstice now, so we'll be climbing slowly back towards longer days slowly.

Anyhoo keep the Bodgie Budgie safe,

John

Cooee solstice BW,
Don't go and remind me that our bonzer summer is almost half kaputt already.
Another fierce thunder boomer raged through pre dawn dumping torrential rain, thunder rattling the windows.
Aussie summer here in the Central West, PHOOEY !
And, don't go guzzling too many drams of that Bells whuskey, or you might end up with gout.
The bodgy budgie continues to moult, feathers all over the place.
Little mongrel is perched on me chair arm rest at the moment, preening and pruning.
I was gunna pop down town today to do a hunter gatherer.
But, the plague news on tv is HORRENDOUS.
Yesterday we copped in excess of 80000 infections in the country, naturally NSW being by far the worst.
With a total population around 2.7 times LESS than the UK, that puts our plaguers WORSE than in the UK yesterday.
So, I am still hiding in the hovel today.
Not to worry about the green plastic manual lack of specifics.
From googling there appears to be little in the way of specifics available freebie on the www.
I did encounter one webby mob who provide various BR etc manual pdf files freebie.
British Railways Engineering Training Manuals.
https://www.silvermoorconsulting.co.uk/
While there is no BR class 37 ops manual, there are some other interesting manuals.
My el cheapo home www was only just able to snag a couple of them.
One being the BR Drivers Manual General Data for various weasels.
This details the basic specifications for each weasel, including the class 37.
Including there being the pair of Turbo exhausts.
Full power being available between 10 to 79 mph, with minimum speed at constant rating being 13.6 mph.
AKA 13.6 mph is the balancing speed, whereby the loco can such maintain endlessly.
Getting under 13.6 mph when at full power on a gradient could result in entering short time ratings.
Plus potential for wheel slip and an ultimate stall.
The balancing speed is used to determine the max load capacity on the ruling gradient for that weasel.
Plus also if any load reduction is necessary when multipled with a lower balancing speed weasel.
Here we reduce the total train load possible by 10% when a lower balancing speed loco is multipled.
AKA, a 44 class can drag 615 tonne up a 1 in 40 at 19 kph.
Whereas a 48er can drag 410 tonne up a 1 in 40 at 13 kph.
Multiple a 44 with a 48er and you simply cannot bung a total of 1025 tonne on the pair.
The combined train load must be reduced to a max of 922 tonne or risk stalling.
Class 37 continuous traction amps of 600 with a short time max rating of 630 amps for one hour.
Though, other higher amp limited short time ratings are not included.
This kinda infers to me that in yer video clip the class 37 hogger is notching up and down repetitively.
Constant full power at 10 mph with a heavy train on a grade could create wheel slip.
And would definitely start to enter short time ratings.
Short time ratings are accumulative.
So, once achieving the absolute MAX amperage for the very short time, you must reduce throttle notch.
To avoid going back into short time ratings.
With a heavy train on a gradient, reducing throttle notch for any long period could result in the train stalling.
This is why AC traction weasels are now so popular for heavy slogging at slow speed.
NO short time ratings.
The EE sweep controller that I mentioned has 6 positions, NOT notches in the true sense of the meaning.
B = dynamic brake increase.
L = dynamic brake hold (lap)
D = dynamic brake set up minimum amps, plus step down in dynamic oomph
0 = OFF (both power and dynamic)
MINIMUM power position.
Then sweep through to MAXIMUM power position.
These positions being in a clockwise direction of the handle movement from B to Max power.
I did enjoy playing with them Van Demonian EEs once I became accustomed to their idiosyncrasies.
To engage dynamic brake you move the handle from O to D and await for amps to occur and settle.
Then move through L to B to increase amps.
Then move back to L to hold that dynamic brake amp setting.
To again increase dynamic amps, move to B and then back to L.
To reduce dynamic brake amps, move to D and allow amps to reduce according then back to L.
To disengage dynamic move from L to D and allow all amps to reduce to minimum, then go to O.
When powering move from O to the minimum traction amps setting and allow to settle.
Then sweep the handle to a desired traction amps demand.
All the way to the Max position if necessary on a steep grade with a heavy load.
Traction amps will then begin to cycle.
The class 37 having Westinghouse air brake system.
Whereas the Van Demonian Y, Z and ZA class EEs had Davies Metcalfe air brake system.
The ex QR blow-in EEs, ZB and ZC had Westinghouse air brake system.
I have a photo of the Tassie Z class cab controls in the forum.
http://www.railwayforum.net/gallery/...imageuser=8578
EE sweep master controller and Davies Metcalfe M9A air brake.
OH, and That BLUE fault lamp.
Here on Alcos and EMDs, a blue fault lamp indicates a failure of the Auxiliary Generator / Alternator.
The Van Demonian Z had a belt driven auxiliary generator.
The Van Demonian ZA had a belt driven auxiliary alternator.
But, from memory there was no equivalent to the Blue fault lamp.
Instead there was a Battery Charging fault lamp which would give a similar indication.
All of the Van Demonian EE fault lamps were red.
NO Bells and whistles here.
Only apple cider, red plonk and a smidgen of vodka.
Steve.