Who needs High Speed 2?
 

Seen today on Rail-News.com:

On the 20th August the 07.30 Birmingham to London Euston Virgin Pendolino service completed its journey in just 66 1/2 minutes. This is thought to be the quickest VT journey between the 2 cities.

Virgin Trains told the Rail Media Group : ” This was not planned and the train just had a good run between Birmingham and London”


Assuming this run was from New Street, not International, I make that an average of a shade over 102mph for the 113.25 miles. It reminds me of a journey I had from Liverpool a few months ago when an afternoon Saturday train I was on was run as a non-stop relief from Liverpool to Euston following earlier disruption caused by a lineside fire. Our average was just a shade under 100mph including a signal stop near Runcorn.

Whatever their shortcomings in the creature comforts department, those Pendolinos can't half burn the miles...

hs2
 

Just shows what can be achieved why waste all the millions on a new line when the OLD can achieve this.I wonder if HS1 is just a fashion statement all be it an expensive one.The route of the line will destroy so many communities all for a 15minutes saving .If thewcml can work well it will make this abomination unnesecary.

What you're forgetting is the line hasn't got the capacity to sustain this running. It's technically possible to do it once under the right circumstances but not practical to do it 4 times an hour every day of the year.

That's why we need new lines.

HS 1 is the line between St Pancras & the Channel Tunnel. Do you mean HS 2?

Regards, 62440.

Look, I know I am old fashioned and I "witter" on about when I worked on the railway, and I used to be quite happy "plodding" along the slow line.

But them trains going so fast, I hear fast trains every day of the week going through Bletchley, they are going very fast and some of the Locos sound like aeroplanes. But apart from the modern way of life, where everybody is in a rush and want things done "yesterday", why speed ? Why on earth does the modern railway want to go faster ?
If ever one of those Virgin cornettos or what ever they are called was going as fast as I hear them and something happened people on the train would not stand a chance of surviving it would be a disaster of the same thing as a aeroplane crash.

Surely service is better than speed, nice clean comfortable trains, that leave "A" on time and arrive at "B" on time, that is it is it not ?

It is all very well travelling at very high speed up there in the sky, but to put machinery on metal rails and send it along at very high speed well that is playing with fate. God forbid that there should ever be another high speed train crash, we hope and pray not, but it cannot be gauranteed, nothing is certain when it comes to transporting flesh and blood encased in machinery travelling at high speed. The human body was not designed to withstand impacts of any sort at those speeds.

Good everyday dependable service is all that should be required.
The train departs on time and is comfortable and clean and arrives at its destination on time with happy and relaxed passengers and indeed traincrew.

You dont need to go fast, you still get there just the same.

48111

The need for speed has always been at the heart of the railway. There will always be services that don't require extreme speed, but at it's core, the entire idea behind a railway from day 1 was to get from A to B quicker than before. That's why they were invented, that's why they continue to get faster.

There have always been skeptics of speed, when the steam locomotive was first invented, a peer commented, 30MPH, heads will be torn from bodies, people disembowled, the human body was not designed to travel as such velocities! It is unnatural Sir, unnatural!

And yet here we are. Also, a Pendolino has already had a major accident at speed, and due to modern safety technologies, the only fatility was one 80 year old woman, infact for the accident it was, the ammount of people who not only survived, but got out with zero to minor injuries, was remarkable.

It's far safer to travel in a Pendolino at 140+MPH than in a Mk1 or Mk2 at 50, or a Mk3 / Mk4 at 100+, and that's no lie.

I'd say sadly not. People need to get in, out and between the urban centres as quickly as humanly possible. If it's comfortable, that's great, but it needs to be quick. If it was like a palace but took longer to get there, then nobody would travel.

All people today want is to get to work quicker or travel between offices in different cities, and as long as they have a socket for their laptop and a cup of coffee, they're happy.

It's the pressures of modern society.

To be honest, I would suggest flying is tempting fate much more than traveling fast along the ground. I've already gone over the Pendolino and modern crash-worthiness but aircaft defy gravity - regardless of any safety feature, a plane crash is always going to be fatal. Statistically, railways are still a far safer way to travel than by aircraft, if you take into account the number of incidents in relation to journeys made.

Unfortunately, I don't think that is enough for todays society. But as I say, I'm not entirely sure it ever was. It is on commuter branchlines I suppose, but for intercity travel, the crux has always been, how fast can we go?

Mallard holds the steam speed record for a reason, and at the height of the Steam days, it was all about who could get you from London to Scotland the quickest. A lot of that was marketing but it was all about the appeal that railways were the quickest way to get from A to B, and as I say, that is the very reason they exist. It's their Raison D'etre, their reason for existing at all.

Know what you mean, though I think the Pendolinos are pretty safe in a crash. I had to go up to Birmingham International from Euston the other day and took one of the trains that is being operated by a class 90 and mk3 carriages. We were 'only' doing 110mph of course, but it was so nice to go back to comfy seats, big tables and windows you can see out of properly. Most of the time on train journeys these days I need to work and the odd ones don't it's nice to catch up with reading, sleep etc. Maybe it's a sign of old age but these days I find those things more important than getting from A to B in the shortest possible time. If we ever do get High Speed 2 there'll hardly be time to go to the buffet between London and Birmingham.

Well I honestly beleive that I am getting too old for this forum, a lot of discussions are centred on the modern railway and I will be the first to admit I know very little about this private lot and dont really want to.

Time to think about things I think.

48111

Chill out Peter old mate. We live in an ever changing world, and it's the same for all of us. Nothing stays the same for long these days, and change does not always seem to be for the better but we have to adapt to things whether we like it or not.

You have a million treasured memories of how things were, and I (for one) am mighty glad when you share them with us.

why dont you try a 91 from kings cross to doncaster 156miles in 80 mins:)

All that HS2 would achieve is a faster journey from A to B. If you add C and D as stops, most of the time saving dissappears. In our crowded island, the extra stops would be needed.
If a Pendolino carries 500 passengers, six trains per hour (on a single track) gives a maximum of 3000 passengers per hour. On HS2, headways would have to be longer and I don't think any more than 3000 passengers per hour would be possible.
To achieve very little, HS2 would cost at least £20billion at todays prices. Given that it would take at least 10 years to be up and running, the final bill would be upwards of £50 billion and counting.

HS2
 

:rolleyes: the whole point of HS2 is not to make it quicker for Londoners to get to Brum or visa versa. No, the point is that the Germans want to take their shiny ICE to places like Manchester and Edinburgh so that all us Brits can see how wundabra they are at high speed travel. Then they win the battle for supremacy in Europe.:eek:

Wasn't it an ICE unit on which a wheel "exploded" at high speed a few years ago?
Are they compatible with the UK loading gauge?

Yes they are all standard gauge across Europe until you reach Russian soils.
The only stopping point is channel tunnel permissions/safety features on trains, etc.
Obviously DB Schenker are stretching their Tax payer muscles across most of Europe so they are just waiting for Euro Tunnel to say Oui to letting ICE have access rights (paying them more money really) and timetables will be drawn up to London on HS1 for trains ex-Frankfurt/Munich/Berlin and so on.

It certainly was, at Eschede....see Wiki link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschede_train_disaster


They've fixed the wheels now, but there was quite a stink about it since they were warned by a tram company which used similar wheels and had them disintegrate.

A door flew off an ICE whe it was passing another one recently,it seems as though DB is trying to take over all of our companies so we will have a single nationalised railway again .At least it will be financed properly and run to a strict schedule!

I make that an average of about 117mph - was it a special test run with dispensation to run up to 140mph?

Reading this thread with interest, one thing I can't get my head round is this. Are there really around 30,000+ people a day wanting / needing to travel in either direction? If so, why.
I am a big fan of the railways but I still don't think we need HS2. Probably just a change of mindset.

Mick

Agree the passenger figures are suspect very optimistic and the money should be spent on existing lines and rolling stock

Look what happened in the recent down-turn - lots of plans to expand Stansted Airport and Heathrow all put in the bin because the forecast demand just melted away. Business needs to travel around the globe disappeared and meetings took place over the internet with things like webinars. Maybe more meetings will happen this way so why travel by air or rail when you've got the internet.

Dont give up the forum 48111 !! We need you your comments they are very valued.

While you were with BR it was constantly changing surely mate?

However, Railways cant stay in a time warp if they are to survive. I have just come back from Switzerland - went by Rail from St Pancras, made a mistake by changing at Paris - terrible out of date and dirty metro system - should have gone via Lille, but HS1 and TGV excellent far better than flying any time and almost as quick.

Take a look a Switzerland for a future for rail - massive investment they are building a base tunnel through the Alps to replace the Gotthard Tunnel it will result in huge time savings and will take tens of thousands of trucks of the roads with a high speed freight service.

Adapt, change or die I am afraid thats the message and it always will be

And always has been.:D

I agree with some things 48111 says why cant britain be like germany or better fast trains which are comfortable! I dont go on the train to my fathers house in cornwall from taunton on the train becuase it takes over 3 hours and it is so uncomfortable! I have traveled in first class and my vauxhall corsa has better seats (no i didnt pay extra). I think trains can stay at the speed they go now but comfort is needed on the longer distance trains.

In addition to HS2 I understand that a major scheme to remodel the Norton Bridge junction of the WCML to create a new twin track to bypass Stafford is being considered for completion in 2014 to speed things up further. Just where is all of the money coming from?

Has anyone else heard about this new line?

Keep posting Peter we need to keep the balance on the Forum and your posts are a valuable part of that balance.

Best wishes,

John H-T.

check the timetables

Checking with the National Rail Journey Planner, the fastest Kings Cross-Doncaster seems to be the 18:00 hrs departure, that takes 88 minutes, I make that 106.363mph. I have checked from first train in the morning to last train at night, also Saturday and Sunday, and also the opposite direction where the fastest seems to take 100 minutes. Which time table should I be looking at to find the 80 minutes schedule?

Regards, 62440.

Regards,

A lot of meetings do take place via the Internet but I believe that it is still necessary to meet face to face and talk to real people in buisiness, government and socially.

It is great to talk with everyone on this Forum. It is even better when we have the opportunity to meet face to face. I would hate to think that the world will degenerate into people sitting in front of screens all the time instead of getting out and meeting each other. Humans are social animals and are best when they communicate face to face and can pick up emotions not just words!

As for HST2 I have always said on this Forum that I believe that it is essential to the future of this country as a transport system. When I travel I want to get there quickly and in comfort and spend time doing what I want/need to do and then get home. I prefer train travel to flying especially to avoid the hours wasted waiting in airports!

Best wishes,

John H-T.

Some of us are not that sociable and/or cannot afford to travel in the first place.
Business men and government officials seem to have bottomless pockets when it comes to travel expenses even now when times are lean. But I agree that high speed travel is necessary and can often replace unsafe systems which cannot cope with the huge demands place on it.

weres the comport in a corsa tin with cusions in

Well John, we nearly met mate didnt we, if Wolverton had have happened !!!

48111

Hopefully we will meet up sometime Peter.

Best wishes,

John H-T.

Our local paper today says that HS2 has been moved away from the edge of Aylesbury but it will still be a white eliphant.The money should be put into the rest of the system which needs the development.Get the basics right and then if the money is available build the high speed lines,we need a good network of general purpose lines all over GB these provide services people need.I totaly agree that Penderlino seats are awful the average car seat is better try going to Glasgow and back then you will see what we mean.

You dont want to travel too far in a diesel pendalino since you cant insulate either the noise or the vibration on top of them literally you have a less than comfortable seat!!

How will that affect Quainton now then, if HS2 has been moved ?

48111

I did. Fastest I can find in the public timetable is 1hr 28mins (18:00 departure M-F to Glasgow Central).

Cut the cost in half for HST2 buy building it one way - out of London only :)

:D Did I detect a slight Northern bias there, owd cock.
mickey.:D:D

If it ever gets built, probably find the cost will be cut as I'm sure it will stop at Birmingham. I have the feeling it is just to enlarge the London commuter belt, anything further north will be just too far for most. In the old days railways were started at least either end and sort of met in the middle so to speak, the proposal for HS2 is to start just at the London end. That tells me something.