Northern to install Automated Ticket Gates.
 

Northern Rail feel that there are many passengers who get away without buying tickets, so want to install automated ticket gates similar to those used at stations like Liverpool James Street. The ticket gates will be installed at Manchester Oxford Road ,Piccadilly and Victoria, Blackpool North, Liverpool Lime Street, Bolton and Leeds.

By funding ticket gates Northern will also catch people who avoided purchasing a ticket while travelling on another companies service (not really their job). They will have to provide a member of staff as an alternative to the machines which will not accept the large types of tickets purchased over the internet or phone. Also for passengers who don’t want to risk the machine not giving back their season ticket or who need their ticket to claim compensation or to claim travel expenses back from their employers.

Some of the stations mentioned (Manchester Piccadilly and Leeds) don’t close overnight due to Manchester Airport to York services running through the night, while Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport trains start at 03:38, so Northern will have to provide staff in attendance to accommodate this.

Personally I think Northern would be better off by:
- Installing ticket machines at stations which have a ticket office where only one employee is present at any one time.
- Having longer opening hours on some existing ticket offices.
- Either opening a ticket office or installing a ticket machine at the most popular stations currently without facilities to purchase a ticket.
- Making sure conductors are checking tickets and using additional conductors on busy trains.

I think the majority of people who travel without a ticket do so, not because they were unable to buy one but simply because they had no intention of buying one.:mad: At my local Arriva Trains Wales station many people make no attempt to buy a ticket for short journeys and after boarding the train they do their utmost to avoid the conductor. They know that during busy periods the conductor can't get through the train to check tickets even if he/she wanted to so the chances of having to pay are pretty remote. Barriers at stations would go some way towards catching them.

I appluad Northern for some good thinking. If this machines were designed to spit ticket out again people wouldnt have to worry not getting there ticket back. Also why cant internet sales and tele sales not use standard size tickets? Is there a real reason for "large tickets"? Personally i think ticket barriers should be installed at every station and ticket machines provided outside these barriers so people dont have an excuse not to use them.

I to be honest don't mind this idea. At the moment I can't stand it when staff check tickets, I've had a few times where staff have quizzed what route I was taking using my ticket. Not huge problems but still none the less. At Blackpool when I last visited I got a York bound train back to Manchester when the staff there asked why I wasn't getting a Manchester bound train, but replied by saying I was changing at Preston. Also at Manchester when I entered the platform too early and a different train was in was I quizzed.

With regard to people choosing not to purchase a ticket. One station on the same line as I use, Northwich, has a ticket office which closes at 2:30pm. Northern have made zonal tickets avialable at a café. However, these aren't suitable for people who plan to change trains and while they are cheaper on most journeys, they are more expensive on others. Northwich can have about 20 people making an outward journey on the same afternoon train and the conductor has sometimes only done half the tickets from Northwich when the train is stopping at it's third station after leaving Northwich.

I made a recent journey to Blackpool North which involved a change at Manchester Piccadilly and I was under the impression that you won't get to Manchester more than 5 minutes quicker by changing at Preston. But it may be different if you use Blackpool South or Manchester Victoria.

Was it Platform 13 or 14 at Manchester Piccadilly (the ones at the side) that you used? Normally your told to wait in the 'lounge' if your train isn't one of the next two from either platform as those platforms are extremly busy at certain times.

I think the reason for the large tickets is so they can state a specific train and seat reservation but then they could easily issue two standard size tickets instead.

The problem with some ticket machines is they don't issue weekly seasons or tickets with a 'New Deal' railcards.

I think staff would have to be provided even if large tickets were abloished as what if someone has boarded at an unstaffed station and genuinly hasn't had the chance to purchase a ticket on the train? They'd be stuck in the station!

Yes, by all means increase station ticket office opening hours for honest travellers but also introduce barriers for those that aren't.
I don't think ticket machines are the answer at unmanned country stations because they are too susceptable to vandalism as the railways discovered to its cost a few years ago when some machines in Cheshire were wrecked within hours of being installed.
Passengers, especially ones only making short journeys, can also help the conductor by trying to have the right money available. It just needs a little bit of thought and forward planning and things can run much more smoothly.

The problem smaller stations in Cheshire have which smaller stations in Merseyside and Greater Manchester don't is that there is no CCTV at small or even medium sized stations in Cheshire and the police only ever go near stations if somethings been reported. I'm aware that Merseyside and Greater Manchester police go to certain stations just to remove teenage loiterers.

I'm aware that even stations which are staffed for 14 hours a day in Cheshire have problems with gangs of teenagers terriosing passengers and causing vandalism.

Tonight I travelled on an Arriva Trains Wales service from Warrington Bank Quay. Of the 5 people standing in the vestibule I was the only one with a ticket.:( I had seen the others waiting on the platform for at least 10 minutes before the train arrived and as Warrington Bank Quay has a permanently staffed ticket office it was pretty obvious that they had no intention of buying a ticket. Much to their disgust (mumble, mumble, the ticket fellas coming, ****) the conductor was unusually quick and he nabbed the lot of them before the train reached their stops:D
I wonder how much money the railways lose every day because of people like this?

It is platforms 13 and 14 that are used for North bound trains. I didnlt get quizzed onmy Blacpool journey at Manchester, jst at Preston. It was on a journey I did to Chesterfield that I got quizzed at Manchester. I was going onto platform 4 for a service to Sheffield, but it wasnlt in yet and in theplatform was a 323. I guessed that the ticket inspector would know that I was waiting for the later 158 (think only 10 minutes), ut he looked at the ticket with hesitation, I then explained I was atfer the Cleephrpes train.

It's not the rural stations in Cheshire like Mobberley, Ashley and Delamere that have problems with vandalism, most of those are are in very good condition. It's stations in small towns like Knutsford and Northwich that are staffed part of the time but not late in the evenings that have problems with vandalism.

Also Northern installing ticket gates at big stations where random ticket checks are already carried out won't make any difference to people starting and ending their journeys at smaller stations.

By all means have ticket machines at the likes of Mobberley, Ashley and Delamere if you think that they will be safe from vandalism but why are you so opposed to barriers at the main stations?
Having ticket machines at the small stations doesn't mean that people will use them.

I'm not opposed to ticket barriers I'm just saying that many people trying to board trains at stations like Manchester Piccadilly, Liverpool Lime Street and Leeds without tickets finish up having to purchase a ticket anyway.

I'm not saying that there does have to be ticket machines at those mentioned stations. (It probably wouldn't be profitable to have machines at Ashley or Delamere.) I'm just saying that the really rural stations in Cheshire don't get problems with vandalism, it's usually the more urban stations with limited staffing hours.

My apologies. I attributed the anti-barrier comments to you instead of the thread starter "hstudent". He is another Mid-Cheshire passenger......Do you know him by any chance?

I can accept that these stations don't have problems with vandalism at the moment but would that change if the local louts had ticket machines to play with? We will probably never know.

Due to the location of the railway lines most of the people who use village stations in Cheshire live two or more miles from the station. I don't think vandals would walk that far just to break a ticket machine. They put cash machines in rural locations and they don't get vandalised.

By the way I'm saying that I don't think village stations have problems with vandalism in the same way that larger stations do. I'm not saying ticket machines should be installed at rural stations with few passengers, as they wouldn't be econmically viable.

I found out that the ticket machines that were installed on the Mid Cheshire line were at Greenbank and Navigation Rd. Greenbank does have problems with vandalism but isn't a rural station, it's on the edge of the town of Northwich and located within walking distance of 5 schools and a further education college. Navigation Rd's ticket machine was recently removed by Northern Rail because it was 'non econocially viable' to keep it there.

I'm not saying that ticket gates musn't be installed. I'm just questioning whether it would be the best use of Northern Rails' revenue to install them at stations like Manchester Piccadilly and Leeds where many fare dodgers are caught as it stands.

I'm aware people board trains at staffed stations without tickets. There was an example of this on a train I boarded this morning, a group of high school pupils boarded a train at Hale and hid in the toilets until the train got to Knutsford, where they were alighting. The conductor was aware of this and it held up the train for five minutes while the conductor took their details.

For most people travelling before 9:30 the reason people board trains without tickets is that there is no advantage to the passenger of purchasing a ticket prior to boarding the train (except to save the conductor time and not see other passengers fare dogeding.) Conductors can refuse to issue cheap day returns, savers and tickets with railcard discounts to people who board at a staffed station without a ticket, but obviously that dosen't apply to most journeys made before 9:30.

I'm sorry hstudent. I'm a bit confused (which isn't unusual at my age:D )
Are you saying that because there is no financial incentive to use the ticket office that people deliberately get on the train without a ticket?

Well that was suggested as the reason in the North West RUS as why many station's actual passenger figures are a lot higher than what is statistically recorded.

There are posters at stations saying that if the ticket office if open you can't buy cheap day returns or savers or obtain railcard discounts if purchasing a ticket on the train. However, that obviously has no effect on a lot of passengers who travel before 9:30.

It also could be because some people are lazy and enter a station from the other side to where the ticket office is located and can't be bothered to go across to the ticket office.

Thanks for that.
It's yet another example of people taking the option which requires the least effort on their part and sod everyone else.
I suppose the railways have brought much of this on themselves by doing away with so many manned-stations and having to introduce conductors. Even if their station has a ticket office it sounds like many now regard the conductor as the normal means of purchasing a ticket. For many people there is also the added incentive that the conductor might be too busy to get to them. No wonder Northern are looking at ways to reduce fare evasion.

On one occasion soon after Northern had installed ticket machines, someone was making an advance purchase 10 minutes before a train was due. The only ticket man kept doing it wrong and told the people queuing to buy your tickets off the conductor. When I boarded the train I had my change and railcard to hand but the conductor walked straight past me!

The man selling tickets in the ticket office should really have said to the person wanting an advance purchase to come back in 10 minutes, as there would then be about 35 minutes before the next train.

However, on other ocassions I've had to show my ticket to the same conductor more than once as he or she hadn't remembred me showing them a ticket.

So I asume you said..."Excuse me but I haven't paid yet"

Yes, I couldn't agree more but he had the poor overstretched conductor on the train to fall back on.

That's really inconvenient isn't it? There's nothing worse than having to get your ticket out twice.

I discovered yesterday that they've installed them at Chester station where station staff seem happy to let you keep hold of your ticket if you give a good reason for still needing it.

Ticket barriers were recently installed by CT at Lincoln. They do still have a member of staff on duty to assist people with season tickets, large size tickets, or whatever.

Chatting to the staff member one day, she told me that ticket revenue had increased by 50%! Lots of journeys were being made between the many local stations on busy trains where the passengers knew the conductor could not get to them before their stop.

I am definitely in favour of barriers as I do not like people travelling free whilst I am paying. :mad:

I don't like people travelling for free either but the reason I started the discussion is because I think overall there's probably more people exiting at smaller stations without paying fares than at some of the bigger ones.

I passed through Chester twice today and on both occasions the barriers were out of service. I don't know it it was a technical problem or a manpower shortage.

We are unlikely to see the smaller stations getting manned ticket offices or even machines but where there are facilities to buy tickets I think it should be made compulsory to buy one and not wait until you board the train. This would take some of the pressure off the conductor and he/she should then be more able to deal with passengers getting on at the stations where ticket facilities were not available.
Today I travelled on a number of Merseyrail electric services where penalty fares are in operation for anyone not having a valid ticket. At one of the stations between Birkenhead and West Kirby 6 ticket inspectors swooped on the 3-car train during it's station stop and checked everyones tickets. A good idea in my opinion.

They do a similar thing on the Metrolink. The only problem is the one's on the Metrolink can be a bit heartless. There was outrage earlier this year when a heavily pregnant woman was forced to get off because she couldn't find her ticket in the time she was allocated, which was apparently about twenty seconds. I think under the circumstances they should have shown her some compassion rather than abonding her on a cold and dark platform, especially as she had a ticket.

Adam

Where are the metrolink inspectors? Every time I have travelled onboard the Metrolink last year and this year I have not seen a ticket inspector come and ckeck tickets (but I usually only travel between Piccally and Victoria). It is strange as compared to the Sheffield Supertram there is always a ticket inspector on those trams.

They tend to get on at one station and then get off one or two stations later. And I've only ever seen them when it's busy. Thinking about it, I've never seen them in the city centre section, once on the Altrincham section (I don't really have a reason to go up there that often) and about ten times on the Bury section. I seem to recall there being one on every tram when I was little, but it might be my memory playing tricks on me, I would have been about 7 or 8 at the time.

Adam

I did a return MerseyRail journey. On the outward journey there were at least two ticket inspectors on the train but on the return journey there weren't any.

I've been on the Metrolink quite a few times and the only time I've seen a ticket inspector was on an evening journey when there was a Man United match on. The inspector boarded at Piccadilly Gardens and alighted before Altrincham but he was more concerned about the tram being as full as possible rather than checking all the tickets.

Stagecoach (operator of the Sheffield Super Tram) have just taken over the Manchester Metrolink so when the engineering works have finished there may be more regular checks.

Not having ticket inspectors on every train indicates to me that Merseyrail are confident that their methods are working and that the majority of travellers have a valid ticket?

On entry to Huddersfield station you have to either go past people checking tickets or join the back of the ticket office queue. (Ticket machines are also located at the entrance) This caused problems for someone I know who went in to renew their railcard but wasn’t planning to make a rail journey on the same day. After purchasing a new railcard they had to go past the people checking tickets with a new railcard and no ticket. This made one member of staff think that he had made a rail journey without purchasing a ticket. It would also allow someone to go to a window at the ticket office and ask something like “How would I get to Birmingham from here?” and then have access to the platforms without a ticket.

I myself had a problem with automated ticket barriers on the Spanish railway. When you are issued with a ticket there you have to be careful to allow the ink to dry before putting your ticket away. I didn’t and consequently the machine wouldn’t accept my ticket on exit at the station. It should also be noted that on Spanish rail tickets there are arrows showing which way to insert your ticket in to a ticket barrier, suggesting that automated ticket barriers are seen as the norm there.

"Bring Back the proper RPI's like Merseyrail"

The only answer is to ensure that when someone does get caught to make sure the resulting fine is so large that it will act as a deterrent. Not as many people board a train in the South East now without a ticket because of the possible consequences of doing so. A revenue inspector is not there to collect money mainly but to act as a deterrent. Likewise a speed camera that catches somebody speeding is a speed camera that has failed to do it's job as a deterrent.

Interesting to see this old thread reopened because I don't know how many years it is since the mania for creating "open stations" started. It was probably just after privatisation when all the companies seemed to think of was saving money and getting rid of (experienced) staff. Then they found (bit obvious really) that when you removed the ticket barrier a significant number of people decided to travel without bothering to buy a ticket.

To be fair to Great Western, as it was at the time, in this area they got a grip on this fairly quickly and put barriers in the form of ticket gates back in. As well as immediately noticing an increase in ticket revenue, they found that the problem of train vandalism was very much reduced as (again, a bit obvious) vandals tended not to buy tickets before travelling.