Isn't the capacity less of trams than trains under BR where the peak time service was:
4 car 304s every 20 minutes running stopping services between Altrincham and Manchester
101s (mainly 4 car) every 20 minutes running Chester-Altrincham-Manchester calling at only Sale between Altrincham and Manchester.

The 101s were also much quicker between Altrincham and Manchester than trams.

The Metrolink conditions of carriage say no eating or drinking on trams or tram stops, as well as no suitcases and bicycles. So there's plenty of advantages of trains over trams.

only just discovered this thread, going to answer the questions as they arose in time...

Media:City is getting 5trams per hour, terminating at Cornbrook. The existing 5tph to Eccles will also divert through Media:City to provide 10tph in that section.

The reason the trams will terminate at Cornbrook is because the the other Phase 3a routes open the section of track between Cornbrook and the delta Junction in Piccadilly Gardens will be carrying 35tph in either direction - this is the maximum possible. When 2CC (the second city centre line) is finished in 2016 there will be sufficient capacity in the city centre to allow the Media:City trams to run to either Piccadilly or possible Ashton.

The new trams have hydrolic suspension as opposed to the air suspension on the old trams so should have less shake. Having said that, since the track rennewals a couple of years back the network is pretty much smoothed out now.

The new trams (Bombardier M5000's) have a capacity of 206 compared to the T69's which have 203.

The new M5000's are currently operating across all the network.

It was not possible to add extra sections into the T69's - lots of work was done on this about a decade or so ago, however, the extra section caused all sorts of fire regulation problems and was more expensive to resolve than to buy additional trams to couple them together.

The current investment in the T69's is not really Stagecoachs good work, rather the PTE paying Stagecoach to deliver a load of tram improvements. You will also notice many other small differences like the side mirrors the drivers used to use to ensure they could safely close the doors have been replaced with video cameras and displays in the drivers cabs.

With regards the works on the Alty line, there are loads of documents on AGMA and GMPTEs web sites that discuss ALL the changes that were made to ALL the stations. Since the system was opened in 1992 the disability laws have changed significantly, as such, in 2010 the network was no where near fit for purpose.

What has happened on the Alty line will be done to the Bury line soon with the Eccles line also being re-branded.

All new lines, including the Rochdale loop conversion will also be rebranded as the Alty line has been.

and finally with regards heavy v light rail... the reason that the passenger numbers more than doubled almost immediately upon conversion was due to the much higher frequncy - now a turn up and go 10tph service - along with the fact that the trams take you much closer to your final destination in the city centre.

When all the new trams have been delivered, each direct (Alty to Bury)tram will be double and each Piccadilly service will remain a single unit.

This will provide capacity for 3000 people per direction per hour on each of the Alty and Bury lines. That kind of capacity should be more than sufficient for the time being.

Probably missed a question or two, but I think some have forgotten what Metrolink is and what it isn't.

Welcome to the Forum Kurt. Look forward to more interesting posts.

Best wishes,

John H-T.

Someone asked about service frequencies post expansion, from memory this is what is going to happen...

Alty to Bury remains to the same 5tph direct and 5tph to Piccadilly.
Eccles to Ashton 5tph and Media:City 5tph, giving 10tph from east of Harbour City to Ashton.
Rochdale to East Dids 5tph and Shaw & Crompton to East Dids 5tph making 10tph south of Shaw.
Airport 10tph to city centre, spread between Victoria and Piccadilly.

May have missed something, or made a slight mistake but it's generally correct.

Future Metorlink map
 

http://tinyurl.com/y9h5x7n is a rather neat map of what is coming.

Welcome to the forum Kurt. I think that your 3 posts have told me more about the Manchester tram system than all the preceding posts put together., thanks for that.

Regards, 62440.

At present the drivers are under going line of sight training.

At present the system (on Phase 1 at least, i.e. Alty to Bury) block signalling is utilised.

However, once the new lines open a couple of parts of the network will be too busy for such operations, as such, this year the network is moving to line of sight operations across the entire network, this will increase significantly the numbers of trams capable of running through the city centre.

Other more visible changes currently ongoing are the new ticket machines that will be on each station by the summer and new PIDs (Passenger Information Displays) on all stations (I think), much improved on the existing ones, by the end of 2010.

Media:City and Central Park will open by end of 2011, for further dates see www.metrolink.co.uk

really is a very exciting time for Metrolink.

thank you for all the info on the metrolink,you have answered all the questions i have wanted to know for a long time,any idea why the rail/tram interchange didnt happen at central park?thanks again for the info.

To be honest I was not aware that the interchange was not going to happen. Suspect as with almost all negative decisions surrounding Metrolink, if it does not happen it'll be down to cost.

Have just checked www.lrta.org and that suggests the heavy rail stop that as 'potential' i.e. not ruled out, not definately happening either.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co....ck_in_26m_deal Airport ensionadlso 2nd city centre line in all likelyhood) moves a step closer.

Also http://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/news...extension.html - Ashton and East Dids now with final approval.

That means only airport (detailed planning funded today) is short of legal powers and final approval whilst Oldham & Rochdale town centres are just waiting on final approval now.

Couple of interesting articles about the expansion news.

From memory, the network will have about 110 stops a similar number of trams and about 70km long.

That is some network by anyones standards...

Firstly about the recently released plans for Oldham...

http://www.saddleworthnews.com/?p=640


And secondly about how only 2CC is now waiting for government approval, the rest of Phase3a and Phase3b now all being fully approved and funded..

http://www.transportbriefing.co.uk/b...cle.php?id=418

Today there seems to have been a problem on the metrolink.
A tram failed at Dane road. I think it was an old one, and this is nothing new. Serco treated the trams disgracefully and they need a complete refurb ASAP.
I am getting a bit fed up with this. However, there was also a signal problem at Navigation road. I was there at the time after buying some parts off a mate of mine, and the all the tram's emergency brakes slammed on about a hundred yards from the station. no slowing down on any occasion. The poor passengers must have felt the full force of it all.

I was on an M5000 tram that was held in the city centre at a signal for a long time yesterday. I wondered what was going on.

Is it related to this?

TBH I thought Serco done a Better Job than Stagecoach as the trams seem to be worse condition in the hands of Stagecoach than what they where with Serco.

Shock to the system today thogh as soon as I entered the Mero Link at Man PIc to catch an Eccles tram one was jsut comming out of the tunnel and it was a new opne as well hows that for luck normally you find em on Bury and Altrnicham lines but they seem to have spread there wings to Eccles line now.

I also got 3009 on the way Back to M-Pic from Mkt Street after being on another one also on the eccles line on the way back from Salford Quays.

1014 must have had a faliure to day as saw this one pass me with engineers on board out of service.

This trouble seems to have happened over a number of years. A few years back there was signalling problems and that was due to "youths" (as polite as I can be) nicking copper and signals froze. Yesterday a tram broke AND so did the signals. Tearing out a junction box is one thing, but a moving tram? These yobs are getting more talented! :D

I'm certinately looking forward to seeing this on the Oldham section, hopefully will shift some passengers away from all those buses ;) and free up space, and be more efficient and passenger friendly than the trains were, also being able to link Oldham with Manchester Picc is rather good for interchange.

Having said that all these reports saying Vic and Picc will soon be linked anway by heavy rail. Nonetheless, its all good stuff (well, when it's complete).

The thing is how do we know it is youths /yobs it could be an inside job.

I like that.
It is often done with such precision as well. Thinking about it you don't see hoodies bringing down an entire network in 20 minutes UNOTICED do you?

On saturday I saw a sign in piccadilly gardens. It said " a better metrolink is comming"
Underneath someone had written "When?" :D

The new trams are very bumpy. This has not been adressed, perhaps for the reason of putting passengers on buses.

They're smoother than the old trams, but still a wobbly ride over the BR sections, but as is the nature of light rail vehicles I guess.

I think the main reason they're so much smoother and quieter though is probably a lot to do with the fact they don't have severe and completely ignored wheelflats yet.

was in victoria today at 6pm on a busy platform,was hoping that a new tram wouldnt turn up as they are tiny compared to the older units,what a difference from a few months ago-i was bashing them whenever i could,suppose they will be doubled up tho as more units enter service,find them smooth enough tho.

They are actually a lot larger inside. :confused:

The old trams have less room to stand due to having a lot more seating, plus smaller roof space, the new trams are not only mathmatically larger in dimension internally, of identical dimension externally, but they just feel bigger too?

Crammed trams feel better on the new ones anyway to me.

They also violenlty shake on the in and Out bound lines from Victoria.

It is at its worst I think in heaton park tunnel.

There is the Navigation road bottle neck which is an enourmous problem for train and tram. If you ask me you need four platforms at that station too. Until then neither metrolink or mid cheshire line services can reach their full potential.

By the way I did here about planned Northern services that would terminate at Altrincham. Platform 2 is little used, so could pointwork be altered to allow trams and trains to use it?
Realistically it is never going to be used as much as platform one for trams and for trains to terminate in three and four would create congestion. To be honest Metrolink have never needed that platform. Even when the canopy on one was repaired there is enough space before the canopy starts to still have trams running into that platform.

I can tell you that between Manchester Vic and Shaw it is 6 mins, and every 2 of those will head to Rochdale (12 mins frequency)

The reason they are smoother on the city sections but rougher at high speed than the older ones is im told because the older ones had air suspension (also used for doors and brakes) the newer ones dont use compressed air technology and instead have mechanical suspension. Since this was found to be insufficent from unit 3010 on their supposed to be delivered fitted with additional dampeners and dampeners will be retrofitted to the first 9 eventually.

Indeed yes, knowing the average passenger (a beer belly who gorges on curry) things wo'nt go down too well if you catch my drift! :D

The older ones seem just as ruff though :s

i posted a few weeks ago that i thought the new trams were smooth enough,how wrong i was,when i sent that post i went from victoria to crumpsall and indeed it felt smooth,however i caught the tram from heaton park to victoria today,it wobbled through heaton park tunnel,then from bowker vale to crumpsall,then near the depot at queens road and finally on entering victoria,think it feels worser when standing[as is the case when i use these trams as there is never a seat].

I can't see that happening. The Metrolink platform at Navigation Rd is right up against a car garage and the rail platform backs on to a private residence. There is also the issue of the road with level crossing right next to the station. A level crossing with 4 lines going across it would be very unusual and impractical and there is a further level crossing by Deansgate Junction. This is probably why the original rail line went from 4 lines at Timperley to 2 at Navigation Road, back to 4 at Altrincham.

The best way for reaching full potential would be to use a mix of tram, trains and tram-trains. This would allow services between Stockport and Chester to continue at the same rate via normal train. A 12 minute frequency could operate between Altrincham platform1/2 and Bury by tram and a 12 minute frequency by tram-train between Altrincham platforms 3/4 and Central Manchester with alternate tram-trains continuing to Northwich. However, for that to be successful both train tickets and tram tickets would need to be accepted on tram-trains.

I think there was a seminar recently on bringing tram-trains to Britain.
I take a guess that if tram trains were used in this circumstance, they would have both a dieslel engine and a 750 V pantograph. I would quite like to see this, but I only hope they use decent liveries.

There is a level crossing going over six tracks near Peterborough ! My friend got stuck there for 20 minutes once.:rolleyes:

I believe there is a six-tracker at Exeter St. Davids.

Just thinking about this I think it should go to 10 minute frequencies if this was to happen to allow even intervals in tram-trams going to Northwich but then not to send too many tram-trains to Northwich (one every 20 minutes.)

The trams and tram-trains would also need to run to a stricter schedule so that at stops like Altrincham you can say:

xx:00, xx:10, xx:20, xx:30, xx:40, xx:50 to Central Manchester platform 3
xx:05, xx:15, xx:25, xx:35, xx:45, xx:55 to Bury platform 1

Can I just throw something else into the mix, when the "line of sight" operation comes into use on the city centre section would this not affect the chances of running to a strict scheduled?
Also can you see Network Rail allowing Tram-Trains to run on the same lines as heavy freight trains?

Cheers John.

A proper tram-train is able to run on the same line as DMUs and freight trains, as well as street sections. The tram-train trial between Rotherham and Sheffield will be running on the same line as freight.

The strict schedule would need to apply between Timperley and Northwich. Currently part of the reason for a flexible schedule departing from Altrincham at present is if the next tram arrives early it is ready to take over at platform 1 so the previous tram needs to leave. Using different platforms at Altrincham and both lines through Navigation Road would allow a stricter schedule. Southbound tram-trains arriving early can be held at Altrincham or earlier. Trams-trains departing Northwich can be made to wait until it's time for their departure.

Network Rail do operate signalling for both trams and trains from Deansgate Junction. A signallers strike would have seen a replacement bus service running between Timperley and Altrincham for this reason.

Replace the level crossing with an underpass.
Speeds up Rail, Tram, Pedestrians and Cars at the same time!

For tram trains to work in this case, there would have to be point rearrangements at Altrincham and at Skelton junction. Anyone know where we could see an artists impression of a british tram-train?

Apart from the PPM60 which is already running I dont think any images of british tram-trains have been produced.