Not reading this could affect your health !

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg286.htm

Thanks pre 65, That was just what the doctor ordered!

^2440

Ok I will simplify things a bit.
I really think that deisel traction may die out in the next 50 years.
Remember steam, no one thought it would, but in the space of 13 years it was wiped out almost to extiction.
Can you see a pattern here.
Hydrogen engines are being developed and further more steam traction has been developed behind the scenes for a long time now.
Just look at the 5AT project and the steam loco design group.

The next point is that the replacement will if not steam will not be electric.
This is far too expensive as quite a lot of power is wasted.
Steam is popular.

Whatever happens there will always be preservation groups to satop it's disapearance, and so it will most likely have a status similar to steam now.

I would think it's quite common knowledge that alternative energy sources are being researched and developed for vehicles in general.

However I personally would feel that steam propulsion of any sort is unlikely,no almost inevitably totally unlikely !:D

If a new power source was found that could be fitted to a mobile device (car,bus,lorry,train etc) then surely it would generate electricity ?

The 5AT (or AT5 ?) is an interesting project but they will be very lucky to build one,let alone a fleet. All in my humble opinion of course.:D


Philip.

Hi SFE,
You've mentioned it a few times now but can you please explain how all this electrical power is wasted?

Well lets think about it.
Between trains there is no usage of the power.
If it is a stretch of line between trains on in the middle of the day, then that circuit will still be have power in the cables.
Electricity can not stay still in the wires, it has to move along the circuit and out of it.
Just like in an ordnary circuit.
Unlike an ordinary circuit however, when there is no trains to take the power then ask- where is all the power going?
To waste thats how.
Simply the power is just not used most of the time.

I think that the only place where electric is really usesful is on suburban lines where there is many trains running all the time.
Hope this helps.

To my knowledge isn't it the motors in the train that complete the circuit? Therefore, no train in section, no current is drawn.

I think your understanding of electricity is flawed.:confused:

How much electricity does your kettle use when it is switched off ? There is electricity in the wire.:rolleyes: :D

The power is'nt switched off at all during daylight hours.
Anyway I know of three different types of system so perhaps This is the answer.
The power doent have to be drawn anyway, its still in there travelling around.

Thanks for being so polite, Philip.
Personally I'm stuck for words.

Yes of course.
You can see which traction I favour anyway.
I have to say that electric is more comfortable than deisel.
You probably are right.
I am most likely thinking of a past version.
I am not really up to date on this.
For this country and now, yes you are probably right.
But I am sure you will agree that 25 thousand volts is rather alot?
Third rail runs on only 700, so surley all the extra is not needed?

I suggest you read up on electricity !

The voltage is stepped up with a transformer because the higher voltages are easier to transmit long distances. You can then have a transformer at the recieving end to step it down again.

You are in danger of making yourself look very silly by discussing things like this with an obvious lack of understanding on the subject.


Philip.

Still paying for all that infastructure that is needed can cost millions.
Anyway I do know that a huge amount of power comes from coal fired power stations.
I will now come to safety.
I do not see a way how you can say that it is any safer.
Remember the cumbria crash?
The wires were draged down and prevented escape untill the power was turned off.
In an accident this causes havoc.

I come back to the fact that it is expensive.
I metioned this to begn with and Pre65 has actually strengthened my point.
25000 volts over a long distance is going to eat up the cash.
My knowledge may be flawed but so may be the system.
Remember that deisel and electric traction was considered only for shunting work.
Wonder why?

I'm sorry, but if you keep this drivel up I will get annoyed.

PLEASE do not post anything more about the electric infrastructure untill you have an understanding of it.

The whole point of transforming the electric up to 25KV is that it IS cheaper to transmit.

[QUOTE=steam for ever;31991]
Anyway I do know that a huge amount of power comes from coal fired power stations.

/QUOTE]

So how does going back to steam locomotives help the environmental argument ?

It5 is NOT and I repeat NOT cheaper over long distances.
Wonder why in other countries diesel is used on long distance still.
You have to pay the power company for a start and the wires require attention quite often.
I do not want to annoy you, but lines have been de electrified.
Hold on I have a book here.
Chapter 7 ....lets see....
Ah!
The book I have here is a GCSE electronics book for parents and the modern curriculum stated this sort of thing.

The thing is people 400 years ago did'nt think but knew that the earth was flat.

In the long term it doesn't work.
Are you an electric enthusiast by any chance?

Times do change.
Compared to everyting else overhead power over a long distance is still a fairly new concept.
Don't get too confident.
I have to say I doubt you have actuall seen the bills.

Let me try and explain.

If you wish to transmit electricity over long distances, then by raising the transmission voltage you reduce the end cost. That is why the National Grid use such high voltages as the wires can be thinner and thus the supporting structures can be less massive.

I love steam, I can remember roaming round engine sheds with my ABC and shed guide in the sixties,and I really enjoy the heritage steam movement. BUT there is no future for steam on the "real" railway (apart from specials). I'm sure there will be more new builds in the future, but not "many" in real terms.

I admire your enthusiasm for all things steam but in the "real world" it's never going to happen.


Philip.

This is a small piece about 25KV electric for railways

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25_kV_A...lectrification

Hello SFE,
Because of your unusual and often controversial opinions I think that some of the forum members (myself included) are having difficulty answering your posts. As you are one of the forums most prolific contributors it might help us to deal with you more effectively if you could provide us with some personal information. Obviously I'm not asking you for really personal stuff but your occupation and age would be very helpful. This would enable us to fit your personal experiences into a particular timeframe and would determine the degree of technical detail used in our answers. Hope you don't mind.

I share Steam for evers "gut feeling" that the "electric railway" is taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Whats wrong in a such a densely populated country with the internal combustion engine working at speeds of upto 125mph ?

Does the nation need 200mph electric railways and will they bring significant benefits for the capital outlay ?

Would a High speed diesel with tilting technology and cleaner fuel (perhaps bio-diesel) provide cleaner faster trains at a fraction of the cost ?

If that’s how you want to describe it then we should have used more “sledgehammers” in the past instead of pussyfooting around with cheaper, less efficient options. You can’t have a fit for purpose, cost-effective railway on the cheap.
You know the answer to this. It’s been said often enough in this thread. The problem is that you won’t accept it.;)
I personally don’t know if the country really needs 200mph railways. However, what I do know is that the present routes are becoming more and more congested and new lines will have to be built. Doesn’t it therefore make sense to build these new lines for high speed running using the cleanest and most cost effective traction?
We are back to efficiency again. Even assuming that the bio-fuel could be ethically produced it still has to be carried round and burned in an inefficient internal combustion engine. It might appear to be a cheaper option but once again it’s only a stop gap solution. I shouldn’t think that we would ever be able to produce enough bio-fuel to supply the railways and even if we could it would be much better burnt in power stations to produce electricity. We have to get away from this dependency on oil.

Can I just ask one question? When was the last time anybody saw a modern DIESEL locomotive? From what I remember the last time I looked at one it was a diesel electric loco. So why not cut the middle man out ie get rid of the engine and pick the power source direct from the OLE surely it is more efficent and cost effective.
John

Don't forget the diesel-hydraulic locos John:)

Not forgot the good old hydraulics ST,in fact I shall go and reminisce about Westerns, Hymeks etc while I await the start of the thread Are wood burning steam locos the way forward?;)

Ah hold on.
Reading a bit further I find I am wrong.
What was I drinking last night.
Anyway we have gone a litle bit off topic.
Does anyone think that deisel hydraulics have a working furture?
I beleive that their lives were cut short.
Oh and sorry for disrupting the peace.

Swisstrains,
The fact Is I cannot remember steam in its heyday as I was not born yet.
I feel that you are lucky along with may others.
I don't think you relise just how lucky you are.
I am a philosopher and an architect by trade.
I do wish that I could work on the trains.
I am a bit wierd as I do not have much contact with others though so I am not very good at socialising.
Because of this, If I upset anyone please tell be I am being a philistine, as
I do not intend to offend.

And the very successful modern MaK/Vossloh/Siemens Diesel-Hydraulic locos still being built in Germany and used in many European countries.
Attachment 846Attachment 847

They have a "purposeful" look about them !

Like the chimney.:D