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Missing Diesel Class No.s

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  #1  
Old 21st September 2015, 21:40
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Missing Diesel Class No.s

Hi there, I'm new on here, although I have been on other forums, anyway this is my first post

This one that's probably cropped up on here before but I cannot find a thread of such so far.

I'm interested in the original diesels and their history and I'm trying to find out about more about the Class and numbering system and identify such.

Going through the TOPS Classes as allocated in 1967, many years ago I had noticed several apparently 'missing' no.s. I have been trying to identify such ever since (on and off)

Given that BR used all the no's in sequence for each type (e.g. Type 2 = Classes 21-31, Type 4 = Classes 40-53), it appears some are missing or possibly not identified (by me that is!)

This is the original list of Classification (as what I have read of) :-

Class no.s 01-07 were for Shunters of 150-300hp
Class no.s 08-13 were for Shunters of 350-400hp
Class no.s 15-20 for Type 1 Locos 800-1000hp
Class no.s 21-31 for Type 2 Locos 1001-1499hp
Class no.s 33-37 for Type 3 locos 1500-1999hp
Class no.s 40-53 for Type 4 Locos 2000-2999hp
Class no.s 55-up for Type 5 Locos 3000+hp


It seems that BR were trying to keep to a Type/Number system i.e. 0-09 for shunters, 10-19 for Type 1, 20-29 for Type 2, 30-39 for Type 3, 40-49 for Type 4 and 50-59 for Type 5, but because in some Types there were more loco classes than they had the 10 numbers for, it ended up going awry.

But just from this list immediately I see some no.s missing !! Classes 14, 32, 38 & 39 and Class 54 I don't believe with these were no.s, that they had just not yet used them and were saving them for future classes, because BR seemed to be using the no.s in sequence and were not leaving any obvious gaps.

Class 14 is easy - an oddity (shunter or Type 1 loco ?) as a Trip Loco which were put in the D9500 no. series in the 1955 numbering system I don't understand why they gave it Type 5 no.s ?) I don't know why it was not in the list, except that they could not decide if it was a Shunter or a Type 1 and classed it as something else (a trip loco ?) initially.

Class 32 ? Does anyone know if there was Class 32 allocated to any locos ?

Just going by the no. it could be for a Type 2 or 3 loco, and my guess is it was allocated to a Type 2 loco, and one which was still in use in 1967, the NBL prototype 10800 which had been in service since 1950 and was re-engined by Brush in 1962. My guess is it was this loco ( after being re-engined) that was given the Class 32 (but not renumbered as far as I know ?) but as it was withdrawn in 1968 (just 1 year after the Classifications were allocated) it has since been forgotten, does anyone have any ideas or info about this suggestion ? I have since seen a different list of Classes and it states that Type 2 locos used the classes 21-32, so it was definitely a Type 2 and it was used !

I don't believe Classes 38 & 39 were not allocated because there just wasn't enough Type 3 locos to fill the numbering system up, but I don't know what Loco's they could have been allocated to ?
I have since discovered that there was a Loco designed in the 1980's based on Class 58, but with less power that was allocated Class 38, but not built, but this is a later event.

Class 54 ? was this a Type 4 or Type 5 no. ?, maybe it would have been saved for a future Type 4 ? or could it possibly been allocated as a Type 5
Such as to HS4000 Kestrel ? although this loco was never put into capital stock, being on loan from Brush, and it was not introduced until January 1968. However it was being built in 1967, maybe BR gave it a classification on the distinct possibility that this prototype being built could manifest into a class of loco's in service ? however I think it is unlikely, and if it was given a Class no. it would probably have been 56 (the next in order of Type 5's and because it had more power than a Deltic, BR usually gave Type no.s in order of engine size), but I have not heard of such and which has since been used. Any arguments/suggestions ?

And what of the no.s within the numbering system (above) that had at first not obviously allocated to any class of loco ?

Classes 18 & 19 ? I have no idea about this, maybe BR just did not have enough Type 1 Loco's to fill that section ? but if that is the case why were the EE Type 1's allocated Class 20, skipping 18 & 19 ?? 18 was later allocated for a Type 1 based on the 58's which was never built.

Class 30 is another easy one which I discovered a long time ago are what 31's were before being re-engine and before Tops no.s were applied, however it is hard to identify which ones it applied to as most 31's were already done before this Class designation came in. Anyone know the dates of the 31's re-engineering, anyone know the actual date this Class numbering system came in ?

Class 34 ? No loco class for this no. ? I read somewhere recently (I can't remember where or in what publication ?) that the prototypes 10000 & 10001 were allocated Class 34 ? why 10000 I don't know as this was withdrawn in 1963, however 10001 was still in service until March 1966 ! as neither were not yet scrapped maybe they were given the allocation just in case ?, they were in the same power range ?, however I have found some info that they originally classified what became Sub-Class 33/1 as Class 34, but changed to 33/1 before Tops no.s came in.

Class 36 ? Could this have possibly been allocated to the Brush Type 2's (future class 31) D5545 & D5655-D5670 which were uprated to 1600hp ?

Class 48 was allocated to Brush Type 4's D1702-D1706 with different engine and power rating, but these were re-engined to the same as the other Brush Type 4's before Tops numbering.

Class 49 ? the only suggestion I have for this would be DP2 ? which was in service (as a prototype) until it was damaged in an accident in 1967.
It was in the Type 4 range and led onto what became the Class 50's, what do you think ?

Class 51 ??

Class 53 was for D1200 which was classified and re-numbered from prototype D0280

Have I missed any ?


How about the electric Classes also ? I know that Class 70 were 20001-20003, Class 72 was allocated to what were the JA's E6001-E6006, and Class 80 was E2001, what about 75 ? I've heard that this could have been for 26000 Tommy or a super-electro diesel not built ?
And what about 78-79 ?

Replies are most eagerly anticipated !!


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  #2  
Old 21st September 2015, 21:52
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Interesting post.

I'll give it some attention when I get an hour to spare.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 15:55
richard thompson richard thompson is offline  
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When its put down like that it is interesting. Could it be as simple as the unused numbers were available for designs which were never built?
Richard
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Old 22nd September 2015, 18:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richard thompson View Post
When its put down like that it is interesting. Could it be as simple as the unused numbers were available for designs which were never built?
Richard
Maybe ? That's what I initially thought in the 70's when I first got interested in railways. When I noticed all the gaps in the no. sequence of classes of locomotive (Diesel and Electric) I became inquisitive (my nature), I then discovered all the Classes that had been withdrawn by that time such as Warships, Baby Deltics and others. Over the years I have from time to time had another look, and found others such as Class 53 D1200 (former prototype D0280), and the more I look at the way BR used the no.s the more I believe that locos were actually allocated to each and everyone at the time, and the only no.s not actually used in 1967 were after the only Type 5 in service at the time Deltics, Class 55, i.e 56 and onwards.

For example Type 1's were "allocated" the no.s 15-20, 15-17 were used then the EE Type 1's were given 20 ? why were they not given 18 ??, as in all other instances BR was allocating the no.s in order, but in this case they "skipped" 2 no.s, or did they ?

BR also seemed to put the classes in power order also (or at least try), the lowest for hp getting the lowest no. in the no. range, that's why the EE Type 1's got 20 because they had the highest hp in the power range, so got the last no., so if my theory is correct the "missing" locos would be the same or in-between the Classes 17 and 20, the 15's were 800hp, 16's also 800hp, 17's were 900hp and 20's 1000hp, so 18 & 19 would be locos that were 900-1000hp, but I have not identified any yet, perhaps they were a sub-class of another class later on ?


I recently found some info suggesting that the LMS prototype 10000 and sister 10001 were allocated Class 34 !

I have not had this confirmed anywhere, but as for circumstantial evidence, 10001 was still in service (although only for a short time after & by 1967 10000 had been withdrawn but not yet scrapped) and they both fit into the Type 3 power range profile for that no.
However more recently I found a list which states that Class 34 was allocated to what became sub-class 33/1 locos, which also fit, again I have not had any other info to confirm this.

I don't believe that the missing no's are for missing locos!, just that they were either for prototypes or members of other classes between 1967 -1974, that for whatever reason never took up that Class no. in 1974 when Tops no.s were allocated, either withdrawn/scrapped or just entered into the prevailing Class in another way such as the 33/1's if that is the case. They were mostly Dxxxx no.s and not given any other ID to indicate what Class they belonged to, we all know D9000 was a Class 55, but it did not have anything on the loco to say it was a Class 55, it was stated in a book. So could it be that the people who wrote and printed the books back in the late 60's did not identify the missing classes ?

The Class 48's D1702-D1706 are such an example, given Class 48 as they had a different engine and slightly higher power range than the 47's, they only became 47's when they were re-engined to the same as the 47's before 1974, and when Tops no.s came about the were given Class 47 no.s so not many people would have been the wiser, I certainly wasn't, I only discovered that sometime in the 90's

It is possible that some of the no.s were for Locos or Loco classes proposed around that time, but never got built, but I don't think the no.s were 'saved' for Locos in the future.

Michael
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Old 24th October 2015, 19:01
eagle125 eagle125 is offline  
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I found this when i started building my model railway it came in handy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...motive_classes
Cheers eagle
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Old 29th October 2015, 09:47
class47 class47 is offline  
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"what about 75 ? I've heard that this could have been for 26000 Tommy or a super-electro diesel not built ?"

The Southern Region under its original plans for the Bournemouth electrification scheme wanted build a new 3000hp/600hp electro-diesel, but as the scheme was refined so they came round to the idea of converting 71s to become Class 74 electro-diesels.
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Old 5th November 2015, 20:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by class47 View Post
"what about 75 ? I've heard that this could have been for 26000 Tommy or a super-electro diesel not built ?"

The Southern Region under its original plans for the Bournemouth electrification scheme wanted build a new 3000hp/600hp electro-diesel, but as the scheme was refined so they came round to the idea of converting 71s to become Class 74 electro-diesels.
Hi,

I think you are correct on both counts, I read somewhere that they had originally classified Tommy as 75 but soon after added it to the ranks of Class 76, I would have thought that they should have given it a sub-class 76/0 and the rest 76/1, as it is slightly different.

Later the super-electro-diesel was suggested, and given the Class 75,but didn't get off the drawing board, or possibly didn't even get onto the drawing board.
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Old 7th September 2016, 22:01
randyrippley randyrippley is offline
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my understanding was that
class 57 - HS4000/Kestrel (later reused)
class 54 Deltic (prototype for class 55)
class 51 Lion
class 49 DP2
class 39 10203 (effectively prototype for class 40)
class 38 10201, 10202
class 36 10001, 10002 (essentially mechanically an early attempt at a class 37)
class 34 ?Clayton DHP1?

The Fell locomotive doesn't fit in, nor do the two GWR gas turbines. None lasted long enough to be relevant. Likewise 10800, which was re-engineered into "Hawk"
If DHP1 had actually been class 32, then 10000-10001 could have moved to class 34. If 36 was then used for 10201-2,AND the higher rated 10203 then that would release 38/39 for the two turbines (I'm assuming GT3 was ignored as being a proxy steam engine......) However doing that puts the class sequence out of order when compared to the power ratings

Last edited by randyrippley; 7th September 2016 at 22:16.
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Old 8th September 2016, 14:42
randyrippley randyrippley is offline
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As for the missing type 1 class 18/19, I suspect these were reserved for the contemplated rebuilds of classes 15/16 with EE diesels replacing the Paxmans. Instead these were scrapped and replaced with new build extra class 20s
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