Air and Vacuum Toghther ??????

[ccmmick]

Has any of you ex railwaymen worked air and vacuum toghther.

Back in the 70s we had a turn to Truro a vacuum train, at about 4am we used to take a train of air brake cement wagons to Chacewater the train was to heavy to be worked by vacuum alone.
The cement wagons had vacuum blow through so we used to couple the air up and vacuum the loco was left in vacuum and we would take the lot down to Chacewater in one hit.
This went on for months until management got wind of it they told us that the air was to fiearce a brake to be worked with vacuum, so we had to do it in two trips.
I just wondered if this practice went on elsewhere.

ccmmick.

[steam for ever]

Well I am not strictly an ex railway man but I do know that either the North eastern railway or the Great eastern railway had all their locos dual fitted so it is plausable that it could have happened.
I think they started the use of air braking in the uk.

[ccmmick]

Originally Posted by steam for ever

Well I am not strictly an ex railway man but I do know that either the North eastern railway or the Great eastern railway had all their locos dual fitted so it is plausable that it could have happened.
I think they started the use of air braking in the uk.

I can assure STE it did happen it was diesel (not steam days) and all the locos were duel braked. Back at that time it was all vacuum and air was just coming in and a lot of air brake wagons had a vacuum blow through pipe fitted.
The only reason we did was one trip to Chacewater/Penzance instead of two trips

ccmmick.

[jim d]

Hello Mick I'm surprised you hav'nt had more feed back from your thread re working a mixed braking system train.I know loco's were duel braked fitted but that Iam sure refers to them being able to work either vacuum or air braked trains the driver switching to the required train brake.My thoughts could be the engine being on vacuum with the air portion blow thro's next to the engine all t he cords pulled so the brakes were off the rear vacuum set providing the brake force.How a brake test could be carried out I wouldn't know if 2 different sorts of braking was involved.The guard would have to give the driver his slip having worked out the loading with regard to brake force & speed .Just some thoughts Mick never heard of it before just an idea of how it could be done.Thats what the forum is about am sure ill get shot down in flames by somebody. Cheers Jim.

[ccmmick]

Hi Jim
It is quite simple the loco switch was left in vacuum so you had 21" of vacuum the loco still had main air at 72.5 PSI to provide the air brake wagons they were behind the loco with the vacuum blow through white (pipe) coupled to provide the back of the train with a vacuum brake.
The brake test was done on the rear of the train in the normal way ie a vacuum brake test.
You didn't have to pull any release cords as in theory you had two trains in one air and vacuum together.
You could only do this with a few air wagons as the loco in the vacuum postion only has one compressor working when the loco is worked in the air postion you have two compressors working feeding a train.
Like i say it was not allowed to work a train in this way, we did only to save time and one trip to Penzance instead of two trips and it went on for quite a few months untill management got wind of it, we didn't get in any trouble we were just told not to do it anymore .

ccmmick.

[jim d]

Hi Mick thanks for that happy days! Jim.

[ccmmick]

Thats ok Jim i hope it helped you.

By no response to this from ex railwaymen i would not think it happened anywhere else
If you did something like this today you would be hung drawn and quartered.

Cheers
ccmmick.

[chuffchuff]

I've done it
With Cartics (air) and Carflats (vac), if we had the right Guard It was less snatchy with more vacuum than air.
It really miffed the shunters if you didn't tell them, as they start pulling them back, taking up the slack in the couplings then suddenly come to a stop.
For some reason when the driver nearly fell off the seat on the 350 he'd call you a viking King of England, this bloke apparently

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cnut_the_Great

Don't know why???

[Seabrook]

An immediate problem would be the fact wagons were not dual braked. Wagons could be blow-throughs where a pipe would be fitted to allow for brake continuity but this would not allow the wagon brakes to be operated on the vehicle concerned. Leaving a Loco in the vacuum position would effect brake timings; Quicker Timings for Passenger and Extended timing for Goods. Air brakes work well, Vacuum works well. In very local instances a strange practice may have existed. But my question would be why would you want to play about with brakes. As a Driver I would dig my heels in before doing anything not allowed. After all the very first rule is 'Safety is my first consideration'. Taking chances! Why would you want to!!

[ccmmick]

Originally Posted by Seabrook

An immediate problem would be the fact wagons were not dual braked. Wagons could be blow-throughs where a pipe would be fitted to allow for brake continuity but this would not allow the wagon brakes to be operated on the vehicle concerned. Leaving a Loco in the vacuum position would effect brake timings; Quicker Timings for Passenger and Extended timing for Goods. Air brakes work well, Vacuum works well. In very local instances a strange practice may have existed. But my question would be why would you want to play about with brakes. As a Driver I would dig my heels in before doing anything not allowed. After all the very first rule is 'Safety is my first consideration'. Taking chances! Why would you want to!!

Yes i know Seabrook wagons are not dual braked and yes i know all about brake timings but what i am saying is the front portion was on air with a blow through to the rear vacuum portion of the train and believe me it works fine if there was any danger no way would you do it.
This was years ago with very few air braked wagons and a more relaxed railway like i said before no way would you dream of doing it today a lot of drivers and guards did it at St Blazey and a lot wouldn't.

ccmmick.