22:47

Welcome to Railway Forum!
Welcome!

Thank you for finding your way to Railway Forum, a dedicated community for railway and train enthusiasts. There's a variety of forums, a wonderful gallery, and what's more, we are absolutely FREE. You are very welcome to join, take part in the discussion, and post your pictures!

Click here to go to the forums home page and find out more.
Click here to join.


Go Back   Railway Forum > General Railway Discussion > Passenger Operations and Observations

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 14th July 2016, 15:08
Beeyar Wunby's Avatar
Beeyar Wunby Beeyar Wunby is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Struggling up the hill
Posts: 366
Images: 2
Driver Only Operation - useful info

So far I've kept tight-lipped about the battle that is in progress between the rail unions and the government over the introduction of 12 car driver only operation on the Gatwick Express.

But for those interested, the BBC has rather sensibly produced a short video explaining the problems.


Link ....https://www.facebook.com/BBCSouthTod...8371385586784/

(PS - I'm not looking for an argument, and will happily have a civilised discussion with anyone who may have a dissimilar opinion).

BW


Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 14th July 2016, 19:51
DSY011's Avatar
DSY011 DSY011 is online now  
Station Manager
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: BRISTOL U.K.
Posts: 4,284
Images: 539
I have to agree with the last comment from BBC, it is safer to keep a guard on the train, even if the CCTV was live, and the camera's were always clean.
Just my thoughts.
__________________
The Old Git, Syd
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 15th July 2016, 12:08
bramleyman bramleyman is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 901
Images: 1
As an Ex-guard even though from 1990 until DOO was brought in, I too am against No guards on trains. If there is a disabled person in need of help to board or alight at an unmanned station, is the driver then going to be expected to leave the cab and assist, thus delaying the train?
__________________
I wouldn't say I am old, but when I was a youngster, the Dead Sea was still alive.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 15th July 2016, 18:46
TRP's Avatar
TRP TRP is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Hastings
Posts: 2,258
Images: 2319
I am a little confused by what's being proposed because whilst both sides of the dispute refer to the proposals as Driver Only Operation, Southern have said that the Guard/Conducter will remain on the train to assist passengers, but no longer be responsible for closing the doors as this will be done by the Driver, whereas the Union has said it will be that the Driver will be the only member of staff on board.

Which is correct?!

Tony
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 15th July 2016, 19:49
Beeyar Wunby's Avatar
Beeyar Wunby Beeyar Wunby is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Struggling up the hill
Posts: 366
Images: 2
Long story short.....the guard's role is being changed from being safety critical to just a dogsbody. So the the train can now run legitimately whether they're onboard or not. In time they will disappear completely. The plan which is no secret is to vastly reduce the number of railstaff inline with the McNulty report which was commisioned by the Tory government.

Ultimately there will be few, if any booking office staff, platform staff or on-train staff.

I have a nightmare in which the only person you will ever see on station property will be a solitary school-leaver, who is cheery and very clever with the Ipad that the company has given him, but is a bit lacking in railway knowledge. If you ask him a question, he'll Google it for you.

I hope I'm wrong.

BW

Last edited by Beeyar Wunby; 15th July 2016 at 19:52.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 15th July 2016, 20:27
davat's Avatar
davat davat is online now  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: grange over sands
Posts: 602
Images: 987
As said by Bramleyman, I was trained as a guard by British Rail and it was the guard who was in overall charge of the train. and whilst I always have tried to move forward with times, no railofficial has ever tried to answer one of my questions, namely what happens in the event of say a serious collision which rendersd the driver either unconcious or dead. Who on the train can place detonators on the line or contact either Control or signaller to STOP TRAFFIC and avoid further turmoil.
I appreciate track circuit is in place on most routes but not them all.
Whilst I appreciate the overall cost of guards over the cost of putting track circuit into place over all passenger routes.
The role of an on train guard / or qualified other rail official is in my mind paramount.


David
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 15th July 2016, 20:49
TRP's Avatar
TRP TRP is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Hastings
Posts: 2,258
Images: 2319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeyar Wunby View Post
Long story short.....the guard's role is being changed from being safety critical to just a dogsbody. So the the train can now run legitimately whether they're onboard or not. In time they will disappear completely. The plan which is no secret is to vastly reduce the number of railstaff inline with the McNulty report which was commisioned by the Tory government.

Ultimately there will be few, if any booking office staff, platform staff or on-train staff.

I have a nightmare in which the only person you will ever see on station property will be a solitary school-leaver, who is cheery and very clever with the Ipad that the company has given him, but is a bit lacking in railway knowledge. If you ask him a question, he'll Google it for you.

I hope I'm wrong.

BW
So, even if the Southern plan at the moment is to retain the Guard/Conductor, there will be nothing to stop them removing them in the future. In which case, this shouldn't happen - I think safety will be compromised even if this plan is implemented, let alone removing the Guards altogether.

And why is it only Southern that want to introduce Driver Only Operation - if it was so good, then every TOC would be doing it.

It's seems to be all about cost cutting and while some savings could possibly be made in some areas, I think these proposals would be a bad move.

Tony
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 15th July 2016, 21:28
Beeyar Wunby's Avatar
Beeyar Wunby Beeyar Wunby is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Struggling up the hill
Posts: 366
Images: 2
Well there is alot of DOO already around, but usually in 4 or 8 car trains and often with platform despatchers at the busier stations.

But there are alot of negative changes all happening at once;

1) Trains are getting longer at the same time as guards are being removed - this is what's happening on the Gatwick Express with the new12 car trains

2) Platform despatch staff are being reduced at the same time.

3) Trains are getting busier/fuller year on year

4) The railways own statistics (RSSB) show that the majority of passenger deaths & injuries occur at the "Platform Train Interface".

And this is being done to reduce companies' operating costs....passengers' won't see a reduction in ticket prices, but they are being subjected to more danger.

This is why things are coming to a head, sadly.

BW

Last edited by Beeyar Wunby; 15th July 2016 at 21:31.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 16th July 2016, 00:59
bramleyman bramleyman is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 901
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by davat View Post
As said by Bramleyman, I was trained as a guard by British Rail and it was the guard who was in overall charge of the train. and whilst I always have tried to move forward with times, no railofficial has ever tried to answer one of my questions, namely what happens in the event of say a serious collision which rendersd the driver either unconcious or dead. Who on the train can place detonators on the line or contact either Control or signaller to STOP TRAFFIC and avoid further turmoil.
I appreciate track circuit is in place on most routes but not them all.
Whilst I appreciate the overall cost of guards over the cost of putting track circuit into place over all passenger routes.
The role of an on train guard / or qualified other rail official is in my mind paramount.


David
Thank you very much Davat for your response.
__________________
I wouldn't say I am old, but when I was a youngster, the Dead Sea was still alive.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 18th July 2016, 13:49
Tony Tony is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Guardamar del Segura, Spain.
Posts: 1,184
Images: 9
As an ex Company Safety Officer albeit in an Airline, I can think of at least a dozen reasons why OMO is a ludicrous idea, especially on a crowded 12 coach train in the rush hour. Seeing the BBC clip makes it even worse.
1. A passenger taken ill in coach L. How is the driver contacted? How long before he can get to coach L to assess the situation? How long before he can initiate action?
2. A blockage on the line (shopping trolley), how does the driver report it and protect his train at the same time?
3. What happens in a collision? (Already mentioned).
4. A dirty lens on camera on coach L; does the driver risk moving or does he walk the kilometer there and back to clean it?
5. Sun into camera along the train, how can the driver be sure of door safety before he moves off?
It doesn't require a superbrain to see the pitfalls.
If Southern are not prepared to write a fixed indemnity of 10.000.000 for ANY death or at least 1,000,000 for any injury due to OMO, then they cannot think any more about this harebrained scheme.

P.S. I am not a union man; retired 26 years.

Last edited by Tony; 18th July 2016 at 13:51.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
doo, gatwick express


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 22:47.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.