Time to renationalise?

[52G]

Originally Posted by philw

There is nowhere in the world today where a return to nationalisation is being contemplated

It actually HAPPENED in NZ not so long ago. As usual, privately funded corporate enterprise (please don't call it private enterprise) were able to buy NZR for next to nothing, tried to squeeze as much money as they could out of it, didn't invest in new equipment, and left the railway in a mess. Again, as usual, the public sector is left to sort it out.

[steam for ever]

I hope I don't upset anyone for this, but personally I think that he unions need seeing to before any renationalisation is thought of.
Why? Well back in the early days when some railwaymen could expect a 40 hour shift (The cambrian rialway was particularly bad I believe) and wages were pitiful, the unions were a stroke of genius. Now though, I think they take the ****. I mean, there was an instance a few months back where Arriva drivers wanted a pay rise, so went on strike. They must have been earning 35-40K at that time per annum, so that is just greed, not suffering.

I fear that this is becoming a serious problem, and these unions need to realise that the public is not on their side at all, in fact, they probably haven't had much public support for over thirty years. They used to achieve fairness, reducing poverty and cementing modern moral values. Now? All a strike achieves now is wounding the precarious public support for the railways in general and losing millions for the network, which, I add, is already in debt amounting into billions.

I'm not saying get rid of the unions, but they need to take a hard look at themselves. At present, I feel that a fractured system where the focus is on competition is the only thing nursing the railway's battered work ethic in many places.

In concluding I think I should praise the hard working people who get a bad name from these jobsworths, and in general, they are not too hard to find on Britains railways. A shadow hangs over them sadly. We need to get our railways to the position where they are the very best in the world once more, if not better. If nationalisation is going to be done at all, it needs to be done correctly and with pride. BR had one chance already, and that should have been enough.

[Resolution]

Mmmh!.....Well, I don't know where to start really.

I'm 66yrs old now....so I've seen a few things. I've worked in several industries as an Electrical Engineer.
To start off with...The Private railway companies were knackered and dying BEFORE WW2! They entered it in poor shape, they were kept going during the war years by public money and virtual NATIONALISATION. It was an inevitable consequence after the war because the private railways were bankrupt! The owners snatched the governments hands off when they were offered good money for a dead investment!

The Labour Gov after the war had more pressing things on it's mind so did not invest in more modern traction other than new BR standard Steam (the workshops already existed for those and many other industries like the mines depended upon them).

Has with the much maligned motor industry, (who were also denigrated) were also responsible for the building the Spitfires, Hurricanes, Lancasters, tanks, Guns, Heavy artillery, etc, etc, etc ......That saved this Country! So did places like Crewe, Doncaster, Derby, Swindon Glasgow, and Eastleigh....

Yes...I mean the railway works!
Could YOU have turned around in those days and said: "Sorry you're ALL sacked"?
A civil war would have then ensued!

Civil industries that before the war were dying on their knees had life breathed into them and kept aloft by Nationalised public money. These were the people, many thousands of them, who had worked during the wars years to save this Country and the Labour Gov of 1945 was quite rightly NOT ready to now shoot them in the back by putting them all out of work just like the Tory 20 and 30's....

Now I agree, that the former car industries like Austin, Morris, Hillman, Humber, Triumph, Rover, Jaguar, who had ALL been involved massively in war work during the conflict AND had the living daylights bombed out of them because of it.......should have been slowly returned to private industry. But with regard to the people and their previous efforts.
Instead, all they got was a Tory Goverment who wanted to sack them all instantly!...

Now,....I don't think that was "fair treatment of a loyal workforce" ....do you?

Next: Industrial Action!

Yes, the..."Strike"

Now unless you have lived on another planet from me or something, and I suspect that that is the majority of Tory people.
IN ALL my lifetime! I have NEVER......EVER! heard from the Paper Rags! the Radio or TV media any REAL honest explanation of any Industrial dispute that there has ever been ever!

And if YOU are still being fooled by that tactic, then you'd better re-evaluate your views very quickly because YOUR world is soon going to change....DRASTICALLY!

How much more proof do you want? Other than to listen to the Tories who have who whilst giving themselves £40,000+ tax reduction (thanks to the "so called" Liberals) I, a pensioner have so far been hit 3 times to pay more tax this year!

Finally, Privitisation! That savior of the Nation....Which serves only to move the burden from "the Government" coffers to the "Consumer" of those "services". The Private owners of which have only their own private profit in mind. NOT....the benefit to the Nation!

Is YOUR GAS, ELECTRIC, WATER, PHONE ETC, ETC...bill smaller since the so called more "efficient" Privatisation?....I think NOT! If it is so, it's probably because the working people are having to work for LESS! Do you never think YOU may be next?

This Yanky led Experiment will never work, other than to drive working wages down!....... Worst than that however, it will lead us to a new age of global feudalism.

It seems futile of me now doesn't it to say that ...YES......I think that the railways SHOULD indeed be re-nationalised for the benefit of the nation.

They are MORE heavily subsidised NOW than EVER under BR....

If we carry on on this insane tory way we had better get our coolie hats and rickshaws ready..........

[Christopher Dent]

What ever the pros and cons in the present economic climate it is a non starter. They can't manage to open some of the 19602s closed lines. For example the Portishaed to Bristol line is in situ eg Portishead to Bristol where the A 369 is choc a bloc. Outside my room is the ex LWR Exeter to Salisbury which is mostly singled. Beeching wanted to close it. I would prefer nationalisation but it wouldn't change the high costs of travel.
Chris

[Resolution]

Unfortunately Christopher, the people who are making the decisions these days don't live in Britain. The decisions are.."Global".....i.e. Made in the USA!

For many years now, since Thatcher in fact.........take note: When listening to the Radio.......The TV....or indeed reading a newspaper........just how many of the so called: "experts", called on to speak about any of our UK problems, on ANY subject! etc etc are;....................American!


I'll Betcha that you will soon loose count!.........


Don't we have any "Experts" of our own now? or are they really "telling" us how we should think?.......or else?

[Flying Pig]

Originally Posted by Resolution

IN ALL my lifetime! I have NEVER......EVER! heard from the Paper Rags! the Radio or TV media any REAL honest explanation of any Industrial dispute that there has ever been ever!

I was going to write a great piece about how the media has divided this country by lying to its people and making a mint into the bargain, but this one sentence says it all really. Thankyou.

I see good work being done a daily basis where my union and management sit down and successfully resolve problems that affect the running of the railway, but all the media has given us in the last is 60 years is UNION BASHING and lousy films like 'Carry on at your convenience'.

The bottom line is I'm afraid, that if you believe what you're told by the TV or Papers nowadays you're a gullible idiot.

------------------------------------
Here's an example fom my personal experience:

1) Union asks for a 2.5% anual pay increase coupled with conditions change to give increased productivity in the roster
2) Company responds with a 5% pay increase - but with an increase to +/- 3 hours movement
3) Union ballots members with a postal vote
4) Overwhelming rejection of offer because this means that with a week of 05:00 spare you could start at 02:00 one day and 08:00 the next, plus any variation following
5) TV & Papers report "GREEDY TRAIN DRIVERS REJECT GENEROUS 5% PAY OFFER" - not "company tries to introduce dangerous rostering pattern"

And this 'misreporting' mischief happens every time there's a dispute.

[Silver Fox Phil]

In the start of this thread was one question = "One possible answer is renationalization which could drive down duplication of costs and remove the so called profit from the railway (which is funded by our taxes anyway). What are the up sides to this? What are the down sides?"

OK Politics aside and the beating up of unions and governments done away with! The simple fact remains that in todays world we have a drastic need to change our ways. We have to find solutions to the ever growing population and thier needs, especially within our city's as to how we are going to move them about. That includes the growing demand for consumer products. We all want them yet we are constantly having to put up with the growing problem of our roads being totally congested. If even the most minor issue like a breakdown or small bump occures we become gridlocked and deliveries are delayed and people become unable to get to their destinations on time causing even more friction and anger!
Polution is a major issue in the ever growing amount of traffic on our roads. Most families these days have upward of two and three cars each! Our living areas are massive car parks with people parking on footpaths etc. Look around and tell me your street or road is not just that!
The government has to take over the management of the railways and put back investment to ensure we have a rail network that can supply the needs of local areas as well as the major cities. Reduce the vast amount of costs accociated with building our roads and motorways, this can't be the solution as we are running out of space!
In another 50 years time technology will be well advanced from today, look at how it has advanced in the last 50 years, frightning!! So there will be a need to change how we manage our logistics and that has to come from a central point. We have learned lessons over the years, and we can put that to good use for the better of our country! Nationalise and make it work for the good of everyone!

Wishing us all a better future!
Regards
Phil

[swisstrains]

Maybe I'm biased but this is what I think a nationalised railway should be like

The tunes not bad either so turn up your sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVndl...yer_detailpage

[Silver Fox Phil]

Originally Posted by swisstrains

Maybe I'm biased but this is what I think a nationalised railway should be like

The tunes not bad either so turn up your sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVndl...yer_detailpage

This is what we need in our country and I would welcome this sort of investment. How good could it be???
Cheers
Phil

[Alan Fry]

I think what should happen is that all the TOCs, FOCs and ROSCOs should be taken over by Network Rail, then they will be renamed ti let say "Brit Rail"

What should then happen is that taxpayer support should (legaly) consist of 60-75% of the DFT budget, this company should take cntrol of the roads and introduce road charging (fully under their control), the road tax revenue would be used as a government subsidy for the roads. Lastly, the government should make it legally binding for this company to maintain a high quality rail and road network (both) covering the whole of the Great Britain
On that point, the "new" BR should only allow Mainland National European Rail Companies (DB, DNCF etc) can operate services from Europe to the UK and only the "new" BR can operate train services in the UK

The Railways of Northern Ireland do this already