[Beeyar Wunby]

Hi AS, you've asked the $64 million question then.

Originally Posted by aussiesteve

Autonomous trains, is that the future for rail safety ?
With computer geeks aspiring for driverless transport, what of the future for blue collar workers.

Not in my lifetime (though I only have a few years til I hand my key in).

Of course the technology is there - aircraft have been able to fly themselves since the 1960s, so getting a train to move about on its own is child's play. But you need to have a robust infrastructure for it to operate in. And ours still hasn't been fixed since it was run into the ground in WW2. "Make do and mend" was the motto then, and it hasn't changed since. Broken points, crossings, signals, temporary block working, bridge bashes, animals on the line, and trespassers are just some of the problems we deal with almost EVERY day. Then there's the endless on-train faults - we spend much of our time fixing problems and liasing with 'Control' and Fitters. Passengers think we just jump in a train and drive it - If only !!!

Actually we have a little toy train in London called the Docklands Light Rail which is autonomous and some of our London Underground lines are ATO, but these are small 'sealed' systems, much like your....

Rio Tinto Australia have successfully operated the first driverless iron ore train.
Driverless ore dumper trucks have been rattling around mines for a while now.
Yes, Bart in the USA, and some French commuter trains are driverless.
Many airports now have driverless rubber tire trains.
The Sydney monorail was driverless.
But, these operate on closed infrastructure with no interaction from other types of trains.

Exactly.

Discounting the GWR 'trial' installation, the first truly Automatic Train Operation main line installation is for the Thameslink Programme core which is due to be completed in December 2018 (stop sniggering at the back ). The section runs between Kentish Town and New Cross Gate/Loughborough Jn if I remember correctly, and has cost around a million pounds a mile to construct. So given that Network Rail is up to its neck in debt, I can't see them doing the other 10,000 miles of the UK railway any time soon.

The basis of the Thameslink Programme is that passengers no longer have to get out of a train at Kings Cross, walk 5 minutes across the road to St Pancras, and get on another train.

And ATO means that instead of a driver moving his train at 30 mph into a station, the on-board computer will do it. The driver will oversee the doors and then press a 'go' button. The train will then drive off at 30 mph again.

Surely there are more pressing needs than this ? Perhaps it's just a 'proof of concept' for future projects, but when we have a Health Service which is teetering on the brink of collapse, I think this is perverse.

Human Error is probably the major stumbling point for crewed transport.
Distraction, fatigue, and in some cases medical situations.

Fatigue is starting to be recognised here, which is nice since we've been telling them about it for the last 200 years.
And yet despite Government recommendations our '9 to 5' roster people still dish out horrendous diagrams to traincrew. We've had several serious freight SPADs that the government's own Rail Accident Investigation Branch attributed to fatigue, and recently in London a lass hit the buffer stops with a passenger train. Investigations showed that the night turn was longer than guidelines. But the government won't interfere as it wants all train operators to generate the maximum amount of cash for the treasury, so nothing will ever change until some poor people loose their lives.

The Train Stop apparatus employed in the Sydney Metrop has worked very well for many years.
OK, it only stops the train after it has passed a Stop signal.
But, with the double overlap normally employed in the Metrop, only a slow speed collision is possible.
However, no freight locomotives are fitted with the train stop apparatus.
All suburban and interurban trains have Dead Man control.
This was found wanting in the Waterfall incident.
The driver collapsing over the T-bar throttle in full notch negated the deadman control.
Subsequently, all emu and dmu trains now have a vigilance system as well as the dead man control.
With all the doo-dads in the cab to monitor, will the driver ever glance out the windscreen again ?

Well all trains on the main line here must have vigilance, Dead man's (we call it Driver's Safety Device DSD), AWS, and of course Train Protection & Warning System (DSD). Possibly this is because we're such a small country and our freight trains operate in amongst the passenger ones on the same lines for much of the time.

We are supposed to be getting ERTMS here sometime, though the date seems to keep slipping back. This is the European in-cab signalling system, and its designers reckon it will remove the need to look out the window. Personally speaking I like to look out, because you never know when a fuel tanker may be stuck on a level crossing !

When faced with 'fantastic' new technolgy I always think of the Titanic - the unsinkable ship which sank on its maiden voyage.

I'm not a Luddite and I welcome change when it's for the better. But I'm suspicious of the underlying motives here. No booking office staff, no platform staff, and in the future -no drivers.

I rather like meeting human beings and I think that removing them is not the way to go.

Only time will tell if driverless trains will solve the human error dilemma

This seems to be the tip of a very scary iceberg. There seems to be a worldwide rush to remove people's jobs and replace them with machines. This seems to being done in order to make the 1% of millionaires even richer. I don't see ANY benefit for the 99%.

Human beings have a fundamental need to interact with other human beings.

Technology should exist to help people do their jobs better - it should not put millions of people out of work. That would create a very angry and unhappy world, and yet it seems to be coming.....

Happy New Year

Cheers, BW