Why does DB Shenker want to scrap class 60's
 

Whilst working on a re-lay site in Newport south wales last weekend i witnessed 2 class 66's working in tandem, on the ex-Robeston fuel train when this working was always a single class 60 working. An as far as i knew it was banned to have 2 66 working mulipule but i guess our German friends have now over ruled this, cause you have to have a platform in between the 2 66's to connect the jumper cable as its to high to be done from the ground by the driver or shunter, an permission had to come from head office up in Doncaster.

I dont know why 60s are being phased out to me they are a lovely loco.
We used to call the 66 a Ford and the 60 a Rolls Royce :( :(.

ccmmick.

Well i recon the 60's are far superior to a 66, an the ride quality is so much better on a 60 an their quieter. The 66's are just to noisey which ever cab your riding in.

Have you ever been in 67 Phill.

ccmmick

I'm sorry to say no i hav'nt had that pleasure of cab riding a 67 yet are they really that bad?????, Well i suppose being built by GM they must be are they the same as a 66 with the power unit being bolted direct to the frames so you feel all the vibrations when under full throttle??????.

The main reason class 60's are being phased out is the cost of keeping them going,most of them are due costly "F" exams ( £500,000 at least per loco) and as traffic has fallen off drastically there are plenty of 66's available to run in "multiple", which in the economic climate at present,is a cheaper option.

A 67 on the ECML at 100mph plus is unbelievable,much worse than a class 86/87 electric ! and you couldn't drink a cup of tea on them ! whilst moving at speed.
I think a 5XP steam loco at high speed rode better than a 67,they are probably the worst riding loco's I've ever driven.:eek:

I can tell you Phill they are bad worse than any loco i have ever driven.
Coming down Hemerdon bank at 4am 80mph with a mail train, there was a damp patch just before Plympton and if you went over it at 80mph line speed you would leave the seat.
A 66 is a lot better ride 6 wheel bogie where a 67 only has 4.
They should scrap the lot.

ccmmick.

So instead of having a quality loco like a 60 they prefer to have there drivers using a loco thats akin to a Ford model T.......LOL an how bout when EWS supplied all drivers with ear-defenders because of the noise in the cabs whilst under power. What price would anyone put on hearing......???????

Well ccmmick if you'd been working down from Shelwick Jn bout 5 years back when i was in the gang if the drivers were'nt watching the road they would end up wearing there tea, when we were packing joints...

As you know all loco are very noisy and a lot of ex railwaymen are hard of hearing due to that fact.
A lot have had compensation but not me:(.
It all goes with the job im afraid.

ccmmick.

On a "privatised" railway the "company" are only bothered about one thing its the new god called "PROFIT" they aren't concerned about the comfort or lack of it for Drivers !

Well 21Aman i suppose its about time things changed but i can say what i like an it won't do a thing but if the company is making so much "PROFIT" then surely they can cost the F Exams on some of the 60's but they prefer to line there pockets an buy more CHEAP locos from abroad !!!

I can agree with you there ccmmick as Track staff i totally agree with you there about the hearing problems an its the same for us who try to maintain the tracks what with Kangos an such like machinery its not the quietest job a bit like a 66 or 67 drivers job now what with the ear-defenders we both had to wear at times......lol

I think that you are under a big misapprehension,lnwr20,EWS/DB schenker do not own the class 66 /67 locos they are owned by a leasing company,and are leased from that company by them,such costs involved by the need to carry out "F" exams would therefore be born by the leasing company not EWS/DB.
Unfortunately the class 60 locos(also class 37,47,56,58 are owned by EWS/DB) and any costs for re-furb or large exams have to be born by EWS/DB schencker,which they are not prepared to pay for,that is why they "lease" locomotives rather than own them.

Until about a month ago I had a 60 comming through "Teenage spirit" I think it was called, but now they have put it into storage. According to the railway magazine none have been scrapped but are in storage and now only four are in service. Although "Teenage spirit" is gone I do wish they would use a 37! Please Deutsche bahn Schenker!

Or a class 20! It probably won't happen though. The germans have invaded!

Probably? Certainly! DBS don't have any 20s.

Its a pity somebody like DRS dont have a need for such loco's or even some foreign company........or maybe even DB in Germany could have a use for them?

The reason is, 60's have very poor availability for such a (relatively) new locomotive, with up to 10% of the fleet at Brush for engine repairs at any time, plus those at depots out of service.

p.s. Why do F exams cost 500k? And what exactly does an F exam entail?

The 60's are probably the biggest single victims of Rail freight privatisation, politics and railways just don't mix...Shame but there you go...

An "F Exam" is a virtual rebuild,apart from frames and bodywork replacement.:)

Well i remember when the first class60's where on test trials, they brought two fully loaded iron ore trains from South Wales over to the Swindon area coupled them both together at a combined total weight of something near 3,000 tonnes. Then coupled a class 60 with a class 56 inside to assist if nessary then it was sent back to South Wales via Gloucester to see how it would cope with the gradients an weight over that route, an from what i can recall the train made good time an the 56 was just idling the whole way an added to the weight making the total train weight just over 3,000 tonnes. i would like very much to see a class 66 try that feat on it own when they struggle up the North & West route through Hereford with not even half that weight on.

So what happens during: A, B, C, D and E exams?

i like class 60's

even better in DB S colours

First I have to say that I know nothing about Modern Traction overhaul schedules so what follows is probably a load of rubbish!

Where would an F exam fit in compared to Steam schedules? Is it the equivelent of a Heavy General or is more of a total rebuild like Stanier's rebuild of the Royal Scots? At what sort of milage/engine hours would it take place? At what sort of time interval is it likely to take place? : 5, 10, 20 years?

Looking back at the more successful first generation Diesels, eg 37,47, many of them went through a major refurbishment after about 20-25 years to bring them in line with changing requirements and give them a thorough overhaul to make them fit for another 20-25 years which worked particularly for the 37's. The HST's have also gone through the same process with re-engine programmes etc.

Is this where the 60's are at present? If so is £500,000 such a big deal when set agianst replacing them? Or is it easier just to run them into the ground, which seems to be the case, and then buy/lease new. I suppose the logical replacement for the 60's, if they prove successful, would be the new 70's. It would seem that the 66's would not really do all the jobs the 60's do.

Looking at it another way the 60's are now 20 years old and probably need major work so replace them. I wonder how many of the original 66's will still be in use in 2018! So next year after the design has been tested and evaluated can we expect to see the 60's replaced with 70's?

A lot of thoughts to which I have no answers! I am also looking at it purely on a commercial basis not as a railway enthusiast! I hope some of you might have some answers or at least ideas!


I would be also be grateful for a quick run down of what the A-E exams entail.

Many thanks in anticipation.

John H-T.

The crux of the matter is that EWS/DB Shencker will not pay to replace the now worn out class 60's, firstly they don't need to at present,any heavy train (2000-3000 tonnes) worked by class 60's will be worked by two class 66's in multiple,the reason being that freight traffic is in "freefall" and they have a surplus of loco's,to accommodate "multiple" working.As for replacing them with class 70's have you seen their track record since introduction ?
DBS certainly wouldn't be interested in "buying" any loco in today's climate and I doubt whether a "leasing" company would be interested at the moment to "buy" class 70's !
As regards exams on loco's I don't know the system used today but everything used to be related to "engine hours" not mileage completed,an "A" exam used to be a running exam,comestible levels ,brake wear,electrical circuits etc. carried out weekly I think.
As to B,C,D and E exams I think everything was changed with the introduction of more modern motive power (class 66/67) and the exam times were extended considerably,but alas the 56/58/60 class locos were serviced under the "old system" making them more expensive to run/maintain ?
Its the same with cars really at one time you changed your oil at 3000 miles now with "modern" cars its 10000 miles or even further !
But an "F" exam still means the same, a virtual rebuild which costs "mega bucks" and when you own the loco you have to pay !

Thanks 21Aman.

I realise that frieght trffic is at a low ebb, but hopefully things will get better. I have also followed the introduction with the 70's. One would hope that they will be sorted over time, which is why I assume that there are only six a present .... or perhaps someone will come up with a better design!

Best wishes,

John H-T.

Wow...really interesting post! Wouldn't it make financial sense to the leasing companies to buy the class 60's at scrap price, do the F exams, then lease them back when the economy picks up (if it ever picks up)? Surely that would cost substancially less than buying brand new loco's?

Also, what kind of problems have the class 70's been having?

I dont know the in's and out's of exams i was just a driver you were told to put the engine on the shed for an exam and that was end of story for me.
But the cost of everything on the railways is sky high prices as you all know.
We had a 67 not long in service with a broken windscreen on it, had to wait two days to come down by road the cost £3000 plus the loco two days out of service.
Just think of that the next time you have your car windscreen replaced.

ccmmick.

Has anyone thought that "F" could stand for fitness?
IE fitness to run?

Only you.:D

More like F*****g expensive !:rolleyes:

Could this be done in partnership with Brush, who after all built them. There are over 90 of the class now in store. Or is it time just to let them go?

Best wishes,

John H-T.

If "F" stands for fitness to run, What do the A exam, B exam, C exam, D exam, & E exam stand for SFE?:confused: F is the largest and longest exam of a whole series. I don't have the details to hand or I would post a comprehensive answer to the question. I have the details in a back number of Rail somewhere, I also have over 250 copies of that magazine to search through so don't anyone go holding your breath waiting for the answer from me.:eek:

Regards, 62440:D

I can assure you that an "F" exam does not stand for "Fitness to run" that is an "A" exam !
An "F" exam is a total overhaul which means a visit to a major works.

A = Alright
B = Bit dodgey
C = Clanking noises
D = Decidedly iffy
E = Extremely ill
F = F***ed

Well, you never know... :D:D

It's more likely than "Fitness to run"!

Well folks...I found out what G, H and J exams are: 'Post shopping examinations for electric locomotives only'.

Try this:

http://www.wnxx.com/files/Codes.rtf


The F exam consists of component stripping and complete refurbishment of the locomotive whilst the engine crankcase, alternator and crankshaft remain in situ. This work has been carried by several teams of highly skilled technicians utilising new and reconditioned components that have been supplied to the highest standards of engineering quality. Typically, bogies, cylinder heads, pistons, liners, connecting rods, radiators, compressors, traction motors, turbo chargers and intercoolers are some of the componenets that are removed. Once reassembled, the locomotive is subjected to a lengthy and rigorous testing programme utilising Load Banks which verify that it is performing to the prescribed performance levels and producing a nominal 1750hp before being returned back into traffic.