Double-Decker Trains
 

Hi

I have been living in the UK for 20 years or so. Before that, I was living in France where double-deker trains have been a common site for a long time. I cannot understand why, here in the UK, they have failed to appear especially around London where over-crowding is a big problem. London is much bigger than Paris and has many more comuters; yet, Paris has had double-decker trains for a long time. Berlin has them too and so does Warsaw. So why not London? I would be very happy to know what others have to say about this. It just doesn't make sense to me!

Regards

Patrick

Hello Patrick and welcome to the forum.
The Southern Region had a few double-decker trains in the 50's and 60's but they were very cramped due to the restrictive British loading gauge. Modern double-decker trains have been talked about but the cost of altering bridges and tunnels would be very high.
John.

To run high-speed trains in the UK, they will need to make the line straighter as the current curves are too sharp for high-speed. By the way, all curves on the French LGV's (Ligne Grande Vitesse) have a 15km radius to allow for high-speed.

The British double decker trains that have alredy been mentioned where designed by Bullied. I've heard that if you sat downstairs you could smell the feet off the people upstairs, but I don't know how true that is.

These trains must have looked very strange since bridges in the UK are so low. Are there any pictures that I could have a look at?

I think a couple of coaches have been preserved. There was an article in one of the magazines recently but I can't remember which. Will do some research unless someone else comes up with the info!

Financial Times: March 15 2006
http://www.rmtbristolrail.org.uk/arc...00001637.shtml
Have a look at this site for some info on Double Decker trains.
Syd

Some photos of the 4 DD EMU's here.

http://www.zenadsl5777.zen.co.uk/Railpix/

It could have been worse :D

This was another one of Bulleid's ideas that need to be put into context.

Post War, the Southern was facing sudden critical overcrowding and they had worked out the expense of introducing 10-coach trains. This would have involved extending platforms with consequent major changes in track layouts and signalling. It was going to cost 10's of millions of pounds at 1948 prices, and take years to implement. (= Billions in today's prices??)

So the Double Decker was exactly the right technical solution on paper for speed of introduction and economy. But it didn’t work for many well documented reasons. At least he didn’t build 100s of them before discovering the problem. :rolleyes:

This is what fascinates me about Bulleid. So many of his ideas were absolutely right on paper, but couldn’t quite be delivered, so the idea ended up as failures.

So the end result was that they didn't do anything and ended-up with a bigger problem to solve now!!!

Correct.........and typical of the British attitude towards public transport:(
John.

The main problems are the restrictions imposed by the British loading gauge. It was the passengers who didn't like them because they felt claustraphobic inside them.

The Italian trains for example feel airy and spacious because they are so much bigger.

So why was the British loading gauge so small? It is bigger everywhere else in Europe so double-decker trains do not have to be so cramped. In France, they also feel airy and spacious.

Can anybody confirm my impression that the catenary is lower in the UK than in the rest or Europe? If this is the case then we can say goodbye to double-decker trains. I can't see the British goverment putting-up the money for this kind of upgrade. If this is to happen then the passenger will have to foot the bill and that wouldn't be popular at all because fares are much to high anyway.

No, they went back to "Plan A" and spent billions on extending platforms and signalling etc. You can still see this on many Southern platforms where the last 30m are precast concrete stuck on the end.

To be fair, I think a lot of the infrastructure needed upgrading anyway, but think of the equivalent project today if they decided to make 14-coach trains as the new standard to relieve overcrowding.

One thing they didnt think of in the 1950's was today's alternative solution to overcrowding. i.e. Cut services, shorten trains, and put the fare prices up.:p

We are paying the price for inventing trains in the first place. Much of the present infrastructure was laid out in the 1840-50's!

Countries that followed learn't from our mistakes!

Catenary is lower because the loading gauge is smaller.

The original West Coast Elecifiction was lowered to save the cost of rebuilding all the bridges and enlarging tunnels, which is why many steam engines ended up with yellow stripes on their cab sides.

The bigger engines running on the main line now eg the Duchess have been lowered to work under the wires.

If you compare the width and depth of our canals compared with those on the continent you will find the same thing for the same reason, which is why there is much more commercial traffic on canals on the continent.

We can be very proud of giving the world railways. The downside is our very restricted loading gauge.

Indeed, the UK did give railways to the world but, unlike the rest of the world, it has not been upgrading them to keep up with demand. So now the railways in the UK are bursting at the seams and it is becoming more and more dificult to find a solutions that will not bring about major disruption.

Hi

In the Metro recently, I read that double-decker trains are back on the agenda. Any comments?

Regards

Patrick

I haven't heard about that, Patrick.
I hope someone can give us more details.
John.

The BBC website article is here for you all to have a look at.

Pat,
You forgot to add the site address.
Syd

No I didn't!!! Just click the word "here" in my last post.
The link for thiose of you who want it is: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...on/4456666.stm

In the article, which is nearly a year old, it says:
"Lib Dem transport spokesman Tom Brake said it was time ministers started looking at ways to increase room on trains such as building "double decker" trains"
I see from his profile on the LibDems website that Mr.Brake was brought up and educated in France. I wonder if he got the idea for double-decker trains from France and if he is aware of the differences in loading gauge?
I rarely give politicians much credit:D
John.

There is so much talk on changing the railways at the monent, I recently rad about the idea of introducing a Maglev between Manchester and Liverpool, I don't really see what is wrong with the railways the way that theya re. There are already improvements happening on the lines at the moment anyway such as the WCML.

Perhaps this double decker idea might be linked to the idea of a TGV between Edinbrugh and London that was brought up at one point, that would need new track for high speed running.

I agree David. We just need to improve on what we already have. Reliable, comfortable trains with reasonable prices would be a good start. No need for any fancy MAGLEV's
John.

We dont need new high speed railways all we need to do is upgrade the existing railways. If neccessary make the WCML 4 tracks from London to Glasgow and ECML 4 tracks from London to Edinburgh and onto Glasgow. As well as re-opening the GCR from Sheffield to London for frieght and maybe extending it northwards to Scotland.

Excellent idea. By the way, would you go around, through, or over Loughborough? And would you let the little steam club there carry on with playing trains inbetween the 160mph 3000 ton super-Eurostars? :D :D :D