The end of Northern rail.
 

I think we have established that all of us hate this wretched company and likewise their pathetic inadequate and dangerous little trains, if you can call them that at best.

Thing is though, the franchisetime runs out next year, so this would explain the lack of new trains in the manchester hub plans. A big question is who will replace Northern?

I personally think it will be First group that will take over runnning over many lines and possibly Arriva for some of the more southerly lines.

When the Northern nightmare (a good catchphrase?) ends in 2011 it is probable that 142s will be phased out completely as more 170s are ordered and many more 150s cascaded from elsewhere. This 150 release is set to happen all over the country so the 142 class of pacer could well dissapear from all but the furthest reaches of the map.
This would also explain the reluctance to refurbish tired stock.
In the slightly longer term (around 2015) all 150s could dissapear from the ex Northern network as they are transferred to south wales and the south west.

The 170/2s (or 3s by that time) will be the centre for most traffic by then.


Now you will want proof?
Well none as such that makes it definate but all the signs are in place.

1. Northern know they have lost and are stagnating and are sure (in public) that their stock is adequate and safe. first who are the most likely contender for much of the network are currently introducing new stock (transpennine are anyway, which is closest).

2. Ahead of time, the 142s are being seen in less and less numbers with the 150 cascade starting.

3. Development plans state faster services and better reliability, something which cannot be done unless new stock is obtained.

4. In a final attempt to save face and the company, many 156s have appeared, too late of course but a sign that they know that any other company would instantly bring better standards.

5. We know it is going to end badly for them, escpecially when you paint the statiosn in east German colours. yes they are, have a look! :D


This may well be wishful thinking, but with other regions of the UK raising the standards and ever more complaints and safety concerns come to light, it is not long before something MUST be done in order to keep the railway going.... and the passengers alive.

I may have got one or two points wrong here, but come next year things should get better for those in the north.

How can Northern have lost when the government hasnt even set the specifications for bidders? Rumours ive been hearing is they will have a two year franchise extention to 2013 and then TPE and Northern will be merged into a new franchise.

Uhm, First and Arriva both had the franchise before Nothern, and both were worse if you ask me. At any rate it was the same broken dodgy trains.

The Franchise agreement specifies Nothern do not need to invest in any new trains, anyway.

SFE doesn't seem to know that non of the privatised companies can introduce new trains without specific authority from the DfT. I am sure that they would like to operate as fully independent companies but in fact only act as agents for the DfT who lays down very tight parameters, thereby tying them into a rigid straightjacket.
What in fact has happened is that British Rail was farmed out to private capital but control was kept in the centre as it always was. This is the government's "off sheet financing initiative".

DFT alone? Well it is strange then that this area of the UK has not recieved anything new or even second hand. I am saying that Northern has not even applied for permission for any new trains. Arriva and First both had awful trains, but since those days both companies have (are still) going through some amazing transformations.

I doubt that Northern's franchise could be extended to 2013 if a safety inspector made a random visit to Newton Heath! If he doesn't notice anything then there is some corruption afoot.

Yeah blame the last franchise round, Northern (and one other toc also known for overcrowding) were let by the government on a Zero growth assumption, that is Northern recieves a tiny share of ticket revenue for running the service with everything else going back to the government, if theirs any growth the government recieves more and Northern has no financial incentive to invest in new stock (in fact a disincentive as they would never be able to repay the cost of the stock even if they had ordered it at the beginning). Of course despite the governments outlook passengers have risen by 60-70% on Northern.

Other franchises were let on a growth formula where new rolling stock could be discounted from the revenue the companies pay to the government and thus over the length of the franchise could be repayed.

A second but also significant block on the market is the Dft specifies or approves all contracts for rental or new aquistion meaning the rolling stock companies that were already being run by banks as safe and stable assets not requiring any new investment are even further stopped from investing in new stock on their own back in anticipation of demand instead of when the dft requests it.

Just out of curiosity, what sort of thing is out of place?

Well I for one was quite impressed with my lasst ride on a Northern train. Had to go from Liverpool to St Helens last weekend. Was expecting it to be a class 142. Instead all the stock at Lime street was class 156s. Had a nice refurnished (comfortable) unit that ran very smoothly.

Prefer this company over Virgin any day !

[B][U]GOOD NEWS AND BAD NEWS.
The good news is that Northern are going to get some more DMU's, now for the bad news the seven or so pacers sent to FGW are to return by the end of the year. They are due to get 8 x 150's and loose 4 x 156's.
This all part of the governments planned new vehicles as per the 2008 Rolling stock plan, i.e for new vehicles read recycled oldsters tarted up.
All that happens more seats are provided within certain TOC's by playing Pass the DMU around.
Oh the 180's that Northern use are being returned to the leasing companies.
:mad::):(:confused:

Sounds more like bad than good if you ask me.

That's a blow. The 180's are the nearest thing that Northern have got to a half decent train.:(

Well I can tell you lots of things. A while back I saw one of their 142s that had obviously had an accident in the yard. The corner of the cab had been bashed in.
The simply put masking tape over it to stop bits falling out. If that is the standard theya re living to it is a wonder no-one has been killed yet.

Also a large number of doors on the trains do not work. If there was an emergency this could prevent people getting away safely.

Some of the problems are really quite easy to solve, but the repair and maintaining guys just do nothing. I could afterall hardly call the gaurd giving the door a kick to open it safe. There are worse things that go on, including loose seats and wobbly hand rails, but I think that the problem hear is pretty easy to see.

By the way I think that the problem with the 180s are just too nice for us up here in the company's eyes I think.
One thing we can look forward too is the fact that the 150s will have been with another comany for a while and so will be in a much better state than the ones we see now. We might even see them in a more cheerful livery for a bit too.

And the winner of the 4x156's is................................................ .................................EAST MIDLANDS TRAINS!

Thanks a bunch Northern.

Not amused, 62440.

Sout west trains and East midlands trains seem to be the ones who get anything nice we may have. As soon as we get them, they join the waiting list for them- at the very top. I can see a pattern emerging here. Of course a branch of that company could be taking over Northern I suppose. They at least have a bright livery.

had a bash on the 17.19 man vic blackpool north 180 last week as heard they were going,the train was busy,but loads of people piled on at salford central too,they have worked out the diagrams and know most of them can get a seat,can just see a 150 or 142 maybe coupled entering salford central on the same path-and see the scores of passengers trying to board,its a shame they are going,never quite understood why trains capable of 125 mph were used on stopping services tho,think the fastest it went was when it joined the west coast main line before preston and that was about for 5 minutes,do agree about northerns maintenance issues,dodgy seats,142 doors not opening properly etc,but i do find them reliable-compared with first north western and northern spirit-the latter was very unreliable,think whoever takes over will have problems tho due to the age of the dmus,just before northern started,i got the 17.06 man vic blackpool train operated by a 158[a nice train once]the platform staff had to shut the door with a shove,i was sat in the seat next to the door,the train stopped at farnworth[not a stop on its route]i then heard driver speaking to someone in his cab about a faulty door,i moved away from that seat straight away,wrote to railtrack -as then,about my concerns about newton heath depot,they assured me no train would leave the depot with a faulty door-yeah right,think they want to meet targets rather than take dmus out of service,for erm important maintenance.

First day back from holiday, and my Pacer is currently in a siding at Wigan Wallgate, having been declared a failure. 25 minutes late.

Good start, Northern. :D

After looking in my diary I can recollect a time last year when visiting my friend who lives next to navigation road. I was waiting for my train back there- it was a pacer, which looked like it would conk out at any moment.
I got on it in the first carriage and sat down on a sideways seat next to the bike rack and I heard the doors closing and the dirvers buzzer. However the door in fron tof me failed to close and we were at five miles an hour before the gaurd took any notice of the shouts from our coach and he stopped the train and kicked it shut. Honestly I think the passengers would have been safer walking on the track.

Tell me you're not being serious.

I'm afraid that this is true. Worst of all there was a lady with a pram just a few feet away. That gaurd and driver were then subject to a damn good screaming at.
I have only ever seen that once and I never want to see that again. No one was hurt thankfully and the train was for once not that crowded, but if it was full to bursting like it would be normally with people standing in the door wells, it doesn't bear thinking about really.
Walking on the track would at least provide a safer journey than that ordeal.

You say a Pacer SFE was it a 142 or another class of Pacer i find this very hard to believe because if the doors dont shut properly the drivers brake will not release and if it did happen the train shoud have come out of service right away.

ccmmick.

Yes it was a pacer. If there was a system to stop the train it was'nt working either.

If the doors dont shut the train will not move they have to make a contact to release the brakes if they dont make contact you would be sat there all day.

ccmmick.

Well as I said something must have been seriously wrong as the 142 still went. The doors are in two parts of course and I think it was only one segment that did not close. If you are saying that the train can not go or should not go if a door is open then perhaps it is more serious than previously thought? I'm not an expert on the class by any means, I am simply telling you what I saw.

I wonder how many companies would keep 25 year old busses or lorries in service? No amount of maintenance will cover up all their shortcomings.
By the way SFE, you are welcome to the 142's in exchange for 150's, we might be able to have a more comfortable ride at last.

Whilst at work I once worked a 142 on the Cumbrian coast line and after coming off the brows at Parton, I found the rear doors flapping on the breeze, consquently this was reported to Control on arrival at Whitehaven, and the reply given was that this was impossible owing to interlock with the drivers controls, unable to take power or release the brakes, and I assured him that we had travelled some 3 miles with the driver both taking power and braking, impossible was the reply anyway close the door and lock it out of use, that sounds reasonable I replied but if it can happen to that door what about the others, Just stay inside the train and keep checking, this I refused to do as we had a party of Schoolchildren onboard and I absolutely refused to go any further.
Eventually they split a north bound train so I was able to continue. It eventually transpired that this unit had been reported before and no action had been taken, however this time it was taken out of service and eventually a full electrical circuit had to be replaced, at great cost although no action was ever taken against myself or the driver.

Yeah, I can fully believe that whatever "failsafe" is built into the Pacer's to prevent it moving with open doors probably wouldn't be very reliable, all being considered. They're no-frills Bargain Basement Leyland National Buses bolted on a wagon, at the end of the day.

Also, I'd just like to say I think you made the right call on that one Davat. I can't believe they wanted you to carry on after that incident.

Another incident in the same vicinity occured whilst on the first train from Barrow to Carlisle, this time it wasn't the doors though. Having slowed the slack approaching Harrington Viaduct I left the back cab ready to get the doors at Harrington Station and was opening the flap for the door controls as we went onto tne viaduct a very steeply curved viaduct, when I was thrown around as the rear set of wheels came off the track and I suddenly realised what had happened I made for the back cab to hit the emergency brake, unfortunately I was thrown around and never made it and I then realised we were in the station and stopped so I releases the doors and got my lamp and started to check the back wheel-set only to find that they were back on the rails, we could only presume that it had come back on courtesy of the check rail.
I phoned my driver to say what had happened and he couldn't believe it as he hadn't felt anything at the front, owing to the attrocious conditions a hollowing gale coming off the Irish Sea we decided it was too risky to go back and check the viaduct and whilst to tried to contact the box in the rear reception was so poor that we were uncertain as to if he had recieved the true message we tried to move and found that the unit would go so we went forward at 5 MPH to Workington where we informed the boxes and got traffic stopped, it was suggested that the following should come in and check the track at which point I blew a fuse and pointed out that this happened on a viaduct and the only way to inspect safely was to await daylight and then check carefully/
Our control then suggested that we should proceed to Carlisle complete with passengers as it would be impossible to get road transport at this time of day, once again I flatly refused to take it any further and eventually buses were provided.
A few weeks later whilst in conversation with a track gang leader he said that the crew who had come off the rails at Harrington were lucky as the viaduct was rotten and it was amazing that the unit had gone completly through and dropped onto the road below.
We had split the longtitudinal timbers and some 30 foot lengths had been torn off.
After this we were always known as the crew who could come off and back on tghe rails whilst others thought about it.
Nice units 142's

Wow, you got pretty lucky right there. Good thing you somehow got rerailed, could have been much worse!

Yep the 142s must be nice to work on as the cabs look smashing, and if they were actually looked after and used on the country lines they were designed for and not on ram jam intercity commuters, which is beyond any form of stupidity when you think about it, they could probably get a few more years out of them. I wouldn't be surprised if preservation begins in a few years.

we dont have any problems in yorks with northern neville hill do a good job

you are correct there if door not shut brakes dont realease

Interesting thread chaps, but I dont understand all this modern franchise stuff,it starts to do "me ead in" after a while, why cant we just have a railway like we used to do, one railway, same locos and stock throughout, everyone working for the one head office.

Much easier and in some respect more interesting.

48111

I can see the advantages of that 48111, but at least we get a variety of liveries now. Really I think the big four was a great idea, and that only failed in the first place because the Government did not pay them back for their efforts in the war. nationalisation was just a way to get around it.`

On the point of others, I don't actually think that some people know just how bad a condition these pacers are in. You can't expect all safety features to work perfectly if they are not looked after.

But, now we know the terms of Northerns franchise agreement should we be surprised ?

I'll tell you what, where's Adonis when you need him?

Standing in Downing Street spouting on about the no-fly zone last time I saw him ...

On thinking long and hard I have pretty much lost all faith in the privatised system. Lord Adonis has not just got the railways to contend with, but roads rail and water travel. This is too much for one man to regulate. I could never quite believe that the privatised railway had failed, but now I think it has. I also saw the article about the face the Dft will be bankrupt by 2020. BR did not really work as we can never really trust the government to run a railway. Last time we got Beeching, the end of steam and bad sarnies. Bring on the big four. I want my local train (on the cheshire lines) to have either LMS or LNER stamped on it.